Hennessy

182 for beating puddings off levels.

RPR never had him over 175 which seems much nearer the mark.
 
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I've never really understood why so many people try to crab Best Mate. Okay, he probably never showed the same level of form of the likes of Denman or Kauto Star, but he was was undoubtedly a top-class chaser. He's not the only really good horse who you can pick apart on their Gold Cup form, but he was as good a jumper of a fence I have ever seen.
 
It's not crabbing the horse, it's certain organisations who blatantly rated him on the actual act of winning three Gold Cup's rather than the actual content of those races.

Like I said before, at the end of their respective careers i'd like to see Denman and Kauto Star have a bit of distance ratings wise between themselves and some of their near contempories.
 
Euronymous said:
It's not crabbing the horse, it's certain organisations who blatantly rated him on the actual act of winning three Gold Cup's rather than the actual content of those races.
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He was rated 182 for winning his second Gold Cup. He was only 176+ in his third year.
 
Best Mate, Chives and Valley Henry were all given 8 lb extra for the way the race was run, kicking for home too early which allowed the potentially flattered Harbour Pilot and Truckers Tavern to close up. That's why Harbour Pilot was rated only 164 from that race and ran to 165 the following year

I sort of agree with you that 182 looks high in the grand scheme of things when looking at the horses he's beaten if you don't agree with the way his second Gold Cup was rated.
 
davidjohnson said:
Best Mate, Chives and Valley Henry were all given 8 lb extra for the way the race was run, kicking for home too early which allowed the potentially flattered Harbour Pilot and Truckers Tavern to close up. That's why Harbour Pilot was rated only 164 from that race and ran to 165 the following year

I sort of agree with you that 182 looks high in the grand scheme of things when looking at the horses he's beaten if you don't agree with the way his second Gold Cup was rated.
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The way Best Mate effectively won his second Gold Cup in the middle part of the race was as stunning as any performance I've ever seen from a staying chaser. Unfortunately, most of us forgot that brilliance afterwards in the discussion about how he was campaigned, which was a huge pity.
 
The point remains, though: Best Mate, while genuinely top class, had nothing of any note among his contemporaries. I think my highest rating for him was 178 although I always believed he was capable of better.

I can't see him being as good as either Kauto Star or Denman though.

I got a look at the Hennessy form this morning. It's very difficult to weigh up. It was undoubtedly a top class time. It was undoubtedly a top class weight carrying performance. Quantifying that level is the problem.

At the moment, I'm taking the view that What A Friend would have been good enough to win a normal Hennessy, so I'm rating him as an average winner and allowing Denman that bit extra. It allows a few pounds' improvement from Niche Market but it also means Gone To Lunch was below his Ayr form.

The next runs of the latter two will be informative. If they come out and show a higher level of form I'll have no hesitation in upping Denman's rating.

As it stands, it now puts Denman on 188, higher than Kauto Star. I still wouldn't be confident about backing the former to beat the latter in the Gold Cup. Interestingly, Paul Nicholls said on the Morning Line today, "Knowing what I know [about Kauto Star relative to What A Friend] I'd expect him [Kauto Star] to give What A Friend the weight."
 
Forget Best Mate on 182....the 184 accorded Kicking King for his first King George is the biggest rick Timeform have ever made.
 
I liked Best Mate very much but I dont think he was able to beat See More Bussines or Kicking King at their best.

Neptune Collonges, Denman and Kauto clearly superior to him in my figures too.
 
Grasshopper said:
Forget Best Mate on 182....the 184 accorded Kicking King for his first King George is the biggest rick Timeform have ever made.
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That was downgraded subsequently to 182. Point taken though, although i'd argue that 138 for Celtic Swing's RP Trophy is the worst in my experience.
 
Euronymous said:
i'd argue that 138 for Celtic Swing's RP Trophy is the worst in my experience.
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I'm not sure what else they could do though.

He won by a street in a very fast time on soft ground. I think his rating allowed them to rate the runner-up something like 110, which would be lower than average for a runner-up in that race, given that the winner is often around the 117-120 mark.

Celtic Swing was probably just a 3yo in 2yo's clothing. He probably just wasn't worth the 21lbs (or whatever it was) WFA allowance. Take that off and he's an average winner.
 
Euronymous said:
That was downgraded subsequently to 182. Point taken though, although i'd argue that 138 for Celtic Swing's RP Trophy is the worst in my experience.
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Actually...scratch that......the 172 and 171 accorded to Inglis Drever and Kasbah Bliss after the 2008 Stayers was probably the biggest rick.
 
Easy taking the piss out of people who have a difficult tak to do I suppose, bit like slagging off Gordon Brown. If only Grasshopper could show us how he makes his own ratings pay I'd take his observations more seriously.

And on that note, I need some sleep (no jokes please).;)
 
sunybay said:
Celtic Swing was the best 2yo horse in my lifetime.
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I'd nominate Arazi but there's no doubt the way ratings are calculated Celtic Swing was way up there.

Did he not aso win the French Derby with a broken bone in his knee or something like that?
 
martin said:
Easy taking the piss out of people who have a difficult tak to do I suppose, bit like slagging off Gordon Brown. If only Grasshopper could show us how he makes his own ratings pay I'd take his observations more seriously.

And on that note, I need some sleep (no jokes please).;)
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It's a horse-racing forum, but we're not supposed to discuss handicap marks?

Perhaps you should consider joining the My Little Pony forum instead, Martin. You'd love it over there - professional handicappers and their ratings are always treated with utmost respect, and serial fantasists have £500 e/w on Madison Du Berlais every day of the week.

Muppet.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I'd nominate Arazi but there's no doubt the way ratings are calculated Celtic Swing was way up there.
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Mill Reef and Arazi are the two best 2-y-os I've seen. I thought Fasilyev was extraordinarily good as well and this year's Racing Post winner looks half decent. Celtic Swing was certainly up there, but 138 was silly (although I take DO's point about the way ratings are calculated, he was destined to get a very high mark in the RP)... (never as good as Down To The Woods at two though :)).
 
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What's he doing now, Steve, or have you lost all contact with him? I thought he'd make a lovely dressage horse if his last owner would only stop shoving him out to race. It'd be sad to learn he got sold on again to be broken down, or a fate worse than that.
 
krizon said:
What's he doing now, Steve, or have you lost all contact with him? I thought he'd make a lovely dressage horse if his last owner would only stop shoving him out to race. It'd be sad to learn he got sold on again to be broken down, or a fate worse than that.
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We kept Taufan Boy for a couple of years before finding him a place at equestrian school, but we haven't got the resources to keep them all. A bookmaker bought DTTW and ran him as you indicate unsympathetically. It soured the idea of owning them for me and I packed it in. It was another dimension owning a thoroughbred. It is also a great burden and a great responsibility. In a partnership you don't always have final say either.
 
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Grasshopper said:
It's a horse-racing forum, but we're not supposed to discuss handicap marks?

Perhaps you should consider joining the My Little Pony forum instead, Martin. You'd love it over there - professional handicappers and their ratings are always treated with utmost respect, and serial fantasists have £500 e/w on Madison Du Berlais every day of the week.

Muppet.
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Fair enough, I like taking as well as giving. Thanks for your comments.

I'll be famous one day you know.
 
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