This sums up rather well why so many people dislike the Liverpool fan mentality
http://therepublikofmancunia.com/its-never-their-fault/
http://therepublikofmancunia.com/its-never-their-fault/
Hillsborough
- Thread starter Harbinger
- Start date
Desperate Dan
Senior Jockey
The reaction to Heysel does the city no favours at all. In the eyes of many Reds it`s as though it should be airbrushed from history. In my view, at the Hillsborough memorials, a mention and a moments silence for those who died at Heysel would be very appropriate. And, personally, I find it rather distasteful that Rodgers publicly announces that he uses Hillsborough as a motivational tool for the players.
Also, I think the outrageous media bias in favour of Liverpool (Tyler`s commentary yesterday?) is not in sync with the majority of football fans. A poll earlier this season showed them as the 3rd most unpopular club after Man Utd and Chelsea. Of course, if you express these views you are instantly denounced as "bitter" by the rather large "sad" element of their support.
Also, I think the outrageous media bias in favour of Liverpool (Tyler`s commentary yesterday?) is not in sync with the majority of football fans. A poll earlier this season showed them as the 3rd most unpopular club after Man Utd and Chelsea. Of course, if you express these views you are instantly denounced as "bitter" by the rather large "sad" element of their support.
simmo
Senior Jockey
I hasten to add that I actually rather like Liverpool FC. But that shouldn't detract from what appears to be factual claims.
Tout Seul
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- May 2, 2003
- Messages
- 2,628
The following is a post on this subject I made on a Spurs fansite some years ago
Ironskull said
"I was in that crush in 1981 along with my dad, and it was indeed frightening. I've been involved in other crushes too. I remember queuing outside WHL for a non-all-ticket NLD when I was about 10 - really packed outside PL and round the corner to Worcester Ave, and someone's outstretched arm, bracing them against a wall, caught under my chin and across my throat. The crush was fierce, and my feet weren't touching the ground at the time. Another time watching a game at Elm Park in Reading against Fulham in the old 3rd div, I remember the crush barriers after the game were buckled from the crush that had been behind them. It is true that there were all sorts of thugs at large in the game back then - football hooliganism really was rife. I remember even seeing a petrol bomb thrown at a NLD once, bricks and various objects thrown. Remember the fencing staple incident at a WHL game against Newcastle in the early 70s which (almost?) resulted in a ground closure, the riots against Feyenoord, the Norwich city fan kicked unconscious before the 73 LCF? The general behaviour of quite a large minority of supporters back in the day fashioned the attitudes of many at the time towards football supporters and were a direct cause of the introduction of fences in the first place. And fake tickets/skipping into a ground were not unique to Liverpool in 1989, just as under-reporting of gates and excess crowding of terraced areas were widespread and probably had been for the previous 50 years or so. Some of these incidents were just a result of so very many people present in a small area; some due perhaps to over-exuberance, and some, like the riots, due to thuggery, but none of that implies that the potential victims of 81 such as me or my dad, or the real victims of 89 were in any way responsible, and nor does it suggest that any of their fellow supporters were on the day
So, yes, to some very real extent, certain parts of the footballing community at the time, and not just Liverpool supporters do bear some responsibility, but that doesn't mean that people entering the ground were responsible for the crush the people in front of them experienced. How on earth would they have known about the tunnel and about the crushing in front of them? They were on a day out and had a perfect right to expect that the stadium was safe and that the people in charge, in this case the police and SWFC, were in control. The suggestion that people shouldn't need controlling in such situations is puerile. Why were the police there in that case? What was the policeman on the white horse in 1923 doing then? What were the old fashioned bobbies on traffic point duty back in the day doing if it wasn't some form of people control? Why, in the current era then, is there so much time and attention and thought given to matters of crown control at large events?
And what is more, even if there had been, either in 89 or in 81 or at any other such time, an element of trouble makers contributing to the mayhem; the rest if the people present were entitled to protection from them. The whole climate of the day was to tar all football supporters with the same brush - penning us ALL in, treating us ALL like ****, rather than dealing with the real issues. We still hear the same sort of stupid logic today. One cyclist skips a red light and suddenly ALL cyclists are wankers. One immigrant breaks the law and hence ALL immigrants are bad. The bottom line is that the role of SWFC, the FA and the police was to organise and manage the event on the day and to ensure the safety of the spectators, and because of the various factors highlighted in the various reports, they not only failed in that duty but compounded their failure in the most shameful way possible."
TOUT SEUL
A superb post that says many of the things I wanted to say better than I could.
I went to the 81 game with my 16-y-o brother and 4 friends who were my age, 28, at the time. We had two seat tickets in the main stand in the bottom corner next to the Leppings Lane end and the others standing in the LL end. We arrived at the ground around 30 mins. before KO and bro wanted to stand. It was simple getting to the seats I sat and watched the crush evolve from above but almost touching distance to those in LL, getting worried about bro and friends. Saw them come down the side and watched bro get battered by a mounted copper trying to drive them back to go into the central area where the pressure was already too great. I wanted to climb down and do the guy, definitely not my style, but couldn't. Eventually some coppers saw sense and people were allowed into the side area. What happened in 89 so nearly happened then!
I later learned that there were simply not enough turnstiles to allow the volume of people to pass through in the normal time that people arrive at a match.(confirmed in the report) and that the normal crowd reaction, as per Ironskull, forced a crush as KO time approached.
After the 81 incident there was a big meeting to learn the lessons, police ,other services, SWFC, Sheffield council, safety design/engineers. It recommended reduction of fan limit, major design changes, better police control and coordination etc. SWFC decided to maintain crowd limit, conspired to implement very few design changes, and imo were corrupt, greedy and largely responsible for the deaths as recommended changes would have greatly reduced the chance of a problem arising. FFS their Safety Certificate expired in 1979, 10 years without a valid certificate.. How the hell did they get away with that? Answer Corruption. Action Prison
The police briefing was to handle the visiting fans as likely to be violent so that ordinary coppers would be fearful of opening gates etc to realease pressure. This was despite sensible plans available to treat people as normal that had worked pretty well since 1981. Negligent incompetence. Action. Demote senior officers reducing pay and also reduce pensions of retired senior officers to that of lower ranked coppers
Ironskull said
"I was in that crush in 1981 along with my dad, and it was indeed frightening. I've been involved in other crushes too. I remember queuing outside WHL for a non-all-ticket NLD when I was about 10 - really packed outside PL and round the corner to Worcester Ave, and someone's outstretched arm, bracing them against a wall, caught under my chin and across my throat. The crush was fierce, and my feet weren't touching the ground at the time. Another time watching a game at Elm Park in Reading against Fulham in the old 3rd div, I remember the crush barriers after the game were buckled from the crush that had been behind them. It is true that there were all sorts of thugs at large in the game back then - football hooliganism really was rife. I remember even seeing a petrol bomb thrown at a NLD once, bricks and various objects thrown. Remember the fencing staple incident at a WHL game against Newcastle in the early 70s which (almost?) resulted in a ground closure, the riots against Feyenoord, the Norwich city fan kicked unconscious before the 73 LCF? The general behaviour of quite a large minority of supporters back in the day fashioned the attitudes of many at the time towards football supporters and were a direct cause of the introduction of fences in the first place. And fake tickets/skipping into a ground were not unique to Liverpool in 1989, just as under-reporting of gates and excess crowding of terraced areas were widespread and probably had been for the previous 50 years or so. Some of these incidents were just a result of so very many people present in a small area; some due perhaps to over-exuberance, and some, like the riots, due to thuggery, but none of that implies that the potential victims of 81 such as me or my dad, or the real victims of 89 were in any way responsible, and nor does it suggest that any of their fellow supporters were on the day
So, yes, to some very real extent, certain parts of the footballing community at the time, and not just Liverpool supporters do bear some responsibility, but that doesn't mean that people entering the ground were responsible for the crush the people in front of them experienced. How on earth would they have known about the tunnel and about the crushing in front of them? They were on a day out and had a perfect right to expect that the stadium was safe and that the people in charge, in this case the police and SWFC, were in control. The suggestion that people shouldn't need controlling in such situations is puerile. Why were the police there in that case? What was the policeman on the white horse in 1923 doing then? What were the old fashioned bobbies on traffic point duty back in the day doing if it wasn't some form of people control? Why, in the current era then, is there so much time and attention and thought given to matters of crown control at large events?
And what is more, even if there had been, either in 89 or in 81 or at any other such time, an element of trouble makers contributing to the mayhem; the rest if the people present were entitled to protection from them. The whole climate of the day was to tar all football supporters with the same brush - penning us ALL in, treating us ALL like ****, rather than dealing with the real issues. We still hear the same sort of stupid logic today. One cyclist skips a red light and suddenly ALL cyclists are wankers. One immigrant breaks the law and hence ALL immigrants are bad. The bottom line is that the role of SWFC, the FA and the police was to organise and manage the event on the day and to ensure the safety of the spectators, and because of the various factors highlighted in the various reports, they not only failed in that duty but compounded their failure in the most shameful way possible."
TOUT SEUL
A superb post that says many of the things I wanted to say better than I could.
I went to the 81 game with my 16-y-o brother and 4 friends who were my age, 28, at the time. We had two seat tickets in the main stand in the bottom corner next to the Leppings Lane end and the others standing in the LL end. We arrived at the ground around 30 mins. before KO and bro wanted to stand. It was simple getting to the seats I sat and watched the crush evolve from above but almost touching distance to those in LL, getting worried about bro and friends. Saw them come down the side and watched bro get battered by a mounted copper trying to drive them back to go into the central area where the pressure was already too great. I wanted to climb down and do the guy, definitely not my style, but couldn't. Eventually some coppers saw sense and people were allowed into the side area. What happened in 89 so nearly happened then!
I later learned that there were simply not enough turnstiles to allow the volume of people to pass through in the normal time that people arrive at a match.(confirmed in the report) and that the normal crowd reaction, as per Ironskull, forced a crush as KO time approached.
After the 81 incident there was a big meeting to learn the lessons, police ,other services, SWFC, Sheffield council, safety design/engineers. It recommended reduction of fan limit, major design changes, better police control and coordination etc. SWFC decided to maintain crowd limit, conspired to implement very few design changes, and imo were corrupt, greedy and largely responsible for the deaths as recommended changes would have greatly reduced the chance of a problem arising. FFS their Safety Certificate expired in 1979, 10 years without a valid certificate.. How the hell did they get away with that? Answer Corruption. Action Prison
The police briefing was to handle the visiting fans as likely to be violent so that ordinary coppers would be fearful of opening gates etc to realease pressure. This was despite sensible plans available to treat people as normal that had worked pretty well since 1981. Negligent incompetence. Action. Demote senior officers reducing pay and also reduce pensions of retired senior officers to that of lower ranked coppers
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
That ******* picture of Steve me wearing the Shields t shirt:lol: