Horse Racing and its relationship with Foxhunting

[jinnyj]

Completely agree BB, the vast majority of people I know who hunt are not in the slightest way toffs. In fact far from it. Where I grew up as a child, the hunt masters were the local vicar, the local garage mechanic and showjumper, David Broome (and he didn't go to Eton that I can recall!).

What I don't get is that why is there no obvious opposition to shooting (rearing birds en masse which are then fed like domesticated chickens for the actual shooting season, and then blasted out of the sky in a mass slaughter while trying to escape dogs which are hounding them towards the guns. Is this so much better?

And fishing - oh lets hook a fish through it's cheek, haul it out after a struggle, take a photo of it as we hold it up, then chuck it back in - but of course it's OK because fish don't feel pain.

And pray tell me where all the bunny huggers get off thinking its perfectly acceptable to run over a wild animal - far, far, far more wildlife is killed on our roads (and by domestic cats I will add) and all for the privilege of us humans getting from A to B as quickly as we can.

But going back to the link to racing and hunting - if you had no hunting then point to pointing probably wouldn't survive and that's coming from a point to point secretary who has to get an huge amount of volunteers to help on the day - ALL from the hunt!

 

[Len Madeiros]

Killing animals as a pursuit or for fun is just plain wrong. This is what the pros don't get.

 

[Grasshopper]

But it's OK to mass farm them for human consumption, and it's somehow different, Len?

Sorry, I can't have it.

It's all animal 'cruelty' at the end of the day, and fox-hunting being picked-out as being beyond-the-pale, always seemed to be more aimed at who did the hunting, rather than protecting the fox, imo. Whilst I'm sure Jinnyj is absolutely correct when she says that Hunts are supported by people from all strands of society, I think it is very-much a class issue when it comes to the antis, who (unless they are vegan) I have down as complete hypocrites.

 

[Maruco]

Pretty much my view too Grassy.

I'm sure it still happens but so does other illegal activity.

It's a non-thread anyway. Foxhunting is already banned and it'll remain that way, so I'm really not sure what the point is that we're supposed to debate unless I've missed something?

 

[LUKE]

Our old I.T. guy in work was made redundant and got a job doing I.T. on the kill floor of the local meat factory - he lasted one day and was so sickened by it he didn't submit a time sheet.I like my meat and have no intention of giving it up but how much suffering goes on in meat factories around the world every day.

 

[BennyB]

But it's OK to mass farm them for human consumption, and it's somehow different, Len?

Sorry, I can't have it.

It's all animal 'cruelty' at the end of the day, and fox-hunting being picked-out as being beyond-the-pale, always seemed to be more aimed at who did the hunting, rather than protecting the fox, imo. Whilst I'm sure Jinnyj is absolutely correct when she says that Hunts are supported by people from all strands of society, I think it is very-much a class issue when it comes to the antis, who (unless they are vegan) I have down as complete hypocrites.

Absolutely correct grassy

 

[Len Madeiros]

No, it's more to do with that humans - the class is irrelevant - can derive enjoyment from seeing a defenceless creature torn asunder. That's the issue for me. The ban is now in place and those same people can still enjoy a day in the countryside on horseback. Everyone should be happy now, so why still the discussion about bringing the hunting of foxes back?

 

[G-G]

I thought jumping (steeple chasing) originated from racing from steeple to steeple, nothing to do with chasing wild animals.

I've voted for Anti Foxhunting - Horse Racing should distance itself bloodsports. I don't see that having a connection with bloodsports helps racing in the public eye at all as regards it's image, probably damages it to some degree. I was a country boy, married into a farming family (my late mother in law was secretary of the local hunt and my late father in law held a lawn meet on his farm once a year) so have seen first hand foxes and stags being ripped apart I don't understand how any human being could be a party to that, however I'm not one of these anti hunt protestor types, I just leave that to their own conscience and trust in karma one day.


edit.......and don't tell me it doesn't happen these days

What he said, apart from the bits about the in laws, obviously.

 

[BennyB]

No, it's more to do with that humans - the class is irrelevant - can derive enjoyment from seeing a defenceless creature torn asunder. That's the issue for me. The ban is now in place and those same people can still enjoy a day in the countryside on horseback. Everyone should be happy now, so why still the discussion about bringing the hunting of foxes back?

Because foxes still need controlling in the countryside and the best way of doing it has been banned for no good reason.

You don't derive pleasure from seeing the fox ripped to bits. In fact you rarely see it. However, the chase is an exhilarating way to exercise your horse and the end result is necessary for controlling the fox population.

What we have now is just inefficient, and all because people who have no clue about the countryside either think foxes are cute little creatures or hate 'toffs' and want to spoil their fun in any way possible.

 

[Grasshopper]

No, it's more to do with that humans - the class is irrelevant - can derive enjoyment from seeing a defenceless creature torn asunder. That's the issue for me. The ban is now in place and those same people can still enjoy a day in the countryside on horseback. Everyone should be happy now, so why still the discussion about bringing the hunting of foxes back?

It's the suggestion that people 'enjoy' it that that's the issue, Len, and it betrays the 'townie' attitude I mentioned earlier.

For me, it's a position that is borne of ignorance (I mean that in the nicest way possible).

People don't all-of-a-sudden become heartless bastards when you move into B-Road territory. They have an entirely different way of life from people who are surrounded by bus-stops and newsagents.......and I personally don't think it's right that we (townies) should dictate to them (toothless yokels) about what is and isn't permissible, when it comes to how they manage the countryside.

It's not like they pitchfork and eat unwanted babies for sport in the countryside............I mean?.........it's a fu*cking fox, right?


PS. The discussion has been brought to the table by my old padawan Kotkijet (now masquerading as Bachelors Hall), who is well-known for manifesting his self-doubt on occasion, when it comes to balancing his love of National Hunt racing, with his love of fluffy bunny-wabbits.

Over the years, I have recommended various therapies to him (usually involving rattling boilers), but this appears to have been a limited success.

 

[BennyB]

It's the suggestion that people 'enjoy' it that that's the issue, Len, and it betrays the 'townie' attitude I mentioned earlier.

For me, it's a position that is borne of ignorance (I mean that in the nicest way possible).

People don't all-of-a-sudden become heartless bastards when you move into B-Road territory. They have an entirely different way of life from people who are surrounded by bus-stops and newsagents.......and I personally don't think it's right that we (townies) should dictate to them (toothless yokels) about what is and isn't permissible, when it comes to how they manage the countryside.

It's not like they pitchfork and eat unwanted babies for sport in the countryside............I mean?.........it's a fu*cking fox, right?

As a toothless yokel I must say it's refreshing to hear a townie's view that are correct on this matter. It all comes down to libertarianism ultimately. Hunting foxes does not affect townies one bit, so why should they be able to have it banned?

I don't interfere in their lives. From an animal welfare perspective I'd like to do away with intensively produced meat, but there'd be riots in the aisles of Asda if the price of chicken doubled overnight, so I wouldn't even suggest it.

 

[Ardross]

I am with DG on this one - I am glad though that drag hunts have thrived since the ban and that the apocalyptic visions presented have not come to pass.

 

[Len Madeiros]

How is chasing a fox - not always catching a fox - with an army of humans, horses, hounds and cars an efficient way of managing the countryside? Has there been an upsurge in the fox population since the ban, decimating wildlife in rural areas? OK, Grassy, fair point, maybe not "enjoying", but treating the hunt as a pastime or pursuit: the "kill" isn't even the point of the day out.

And, yes, sometimes us townies do play a role in reflecting back to rural communities what the wider world is thinking. This includes views on animal cruelty.

 

[trudij]

Back in the day, the only people who were there to make the kill were the hunt staff. Pest control was part of their job. ( along with collecting fallen stock from anyone who had a dead animal and managing a lot of the land on their farmers behalf) Farmers could ask the hunt meet at their land and the hounds would follow a specific fox scent - more often than not catching and dispatching ( quickly and simply) the particular fox who was causing the farmer an issue. Digging out a fox was only allowed if the farmer insisted - i don't like that part as well and I was surprised to find that a lot of the hunt staff I talked to weren't comfortable with that either, in their view of the fox made it to ground then he had won and they should leave well alone.

The field are there basically for a) a jolly on private land they aren't allowed to ride over normally, with well maintained jumps/fences ( by the hunt staff) and b) for the hunt to make some money to keep going. Bit like the crowd at a race meeting or a football match - no useful purpose to the business going on, but they have fun and generate revenue.

With the amount of wildlife killed on the road these days, you could argue there's no need for any killing at all, but the countries who had a blanket ban in the hope that the population would control itself ( a popular comment from people who don't look into these things any further than the animal aid leaflets) have had their other wildlife, in particular their ground nesting bird population decimated. I do have numbers somewhere from my college dissertation ( I went a bit overboard!) but they are at the back of a cupboard that I haven't been in for years.... There is no question that foxes need controlling - even people against hunting like the RSPCA accept that as fact, it's just having to find the best way to do it that causes the least damage to everything else that is the tricky bit.

 

[Len Madeiros]

Yes, it's probably true that populations of foxes do need controlling if they are decimating bird populations, but please, not by people who see the control of the fox population as a sport (see where the enjoyment factor might come in, Grass?). Get the man from the ministry in, with some gas or a gun.

 

[clivex]

But it's OK to mass farm them for human consumption, and it's somehow different, Len?

Sorry, I can't have it.

It's all animal 'cruelty' at the end of the day, and fox-hunting being picked-out as being beyond-the-pale, always seemed to be more aimed at who did the hunting, rather than protecting the fox, imo. Whilst I'm sure Jinnyj is absolutely correct when she says that Hunts are supported by people from all strands of society, I think it is very-much a class issue when it comes to the antis, who (unless they are vegan) I have down as complete hypocrites.

Bollocks total crap

abatoirs do not chase their victims to exhaustion before ripping them to pieces. Or does some laughable big mouth go around with his seven iron?

It's not class at all ffs. Is bear baiting and dog fighting???

 

[clivex]

Yes, it's probably true that populations of foxes do need controlling if they are decimating bird populations, but please, not by people who see the control of the fox population as a sport (see where the enjoyment factor might come in, Grass?). Get the man from the ministry in, with some gas or a gun.

they are not decimating bird populations though. Is that their latest myth? Not seen that reported anywhere at all

unless we are talking about farmers and their chickens .. And how well are they treated. who gives a fck

if they don't get pleasure out of it they why are demanding it's return. You made the point yourself . Of course they enjoy it. The numbers actually killed are surely a tiny fraction of the so called pest control. And there are no alternatives?

 

[trudij]

Ok - set numerous traps in the woods/along hedgerows. Catch any number of animals that aren't nececcarily foxes, stress them hugely when they have no means of escape and eventually joe bloggs comes round ( with the cost of this, at most would be once or twice a day) to let them out, assuming they haven't died from shock/panic. Not entirely sure that's a nicer way to do it than being in its own habitat, but if you'd rather that....
Or
Block up runs/set traps ( with all aforementioned lack of species discrimination and stress) and then gas whatever is in there over God knows how long and with the stress and panic going on? Really can't understand why people think either is a better way.


When I get to the cupboard Clive I shall dig out my stuff and give you the facts from where and when the nesting birds got knackered. It's not a new thing at all.

Pest control is not just killing.

 

[Cruella]

Bollocks total crap

abatoirs do not chase their victims to exhaustion before ripping them to pieces.

Neither did most hunts, actually.

To understand why fox hunting was the most natural/humane method of fox control, you need to understand a little bit about wild animal physiology and psychology and that means thinking of the fox as an animal in its own habitat, not anthropomorphising it into a cute fluffy that looks a bit like Fido.

Before humans wiped out wolves, foxes would have been predated by wolf packs, so being "chased by a pack of dogs" is entirely natural and hunting therefore mimicked nature. Contrary to Clive's assertion, the fox hardly ever spent the entire hunt flat out and running for hours. Hounds follow a scent, they're not sighthounds. For most of the hunt they would have been following the scent trail left by a fox in the vicinity anything up to several hours previously. A pack of fully fit hounds can outrun a fox within their sight pretty quickly. Foxes aren't stupid and they use their senses of smell and hearing to judge how far away a hound pack is and whether they need to start running or not. It's not putting them in a state of "terror" either - living with the threat of predation is just part of natural wild animal instinct. It's far, far more stressful to entrap or restrain a wild animal (which is why animals in old-fashioned zoos and circuses display such distressing stereotypies like rocking or self-chewing, and incidentally is why the studies carried out by anti-hunt protestors to try to measure the stress levels in foxes they captured during a hunt were inherently flawed - the act of trapping it to take it to the vet would automatically stress it way beyond anything it encountered in the hunt itself, where it was capable of reacting on its instincts to evade the hunt).

Only at the very end stages of a proportion of hunts would the hounds get close enough to force the fox to run and since as mentioned above, hounds have superior speed and stamina, that stage usually didn't last long, just long enough for the fox's adrenaline levels to spike further which has the effect of mitigating pain, in exactly the same way as horses don't feel the whip at the end of a race in the same way as if you walked up to one in its stable and belted it in cold blood. Yes, there would be a certain amount of short-lived fear, but no more than any wild animal would feel when its predator was closing on it. The kill itself happens pretty quickly once the lead hound(s) bowl the fox over - instinct (that pesky word again!) is to go for the throat and most of any "ripping to pieces" happens when the fox is already dead.

Hunting is the only method of fox control where the fox is either killed outright or gets away unharmed. No lingering death from starvation or infection from a misplaced bullet, no prolonged and unnatural stress from trapping or snaring (foxes have been known to chew their own feet off to escape from a trap) and no slow painful death from poison or gassing. It is also, as someone noted above, the preferable method if you consider fox-as-species rather than fox-as-individual because it tends to be older or sicker foxes - exactly the type to rely on the easy pickings of fenced-in lambs or chickens - who are culled by the hunt.

Hunting isn't perfect (digging out/stopping up earths etc), but if you accept the fundamental point that some control is needed, it's far and away the most natural - in the true sense of the word - and least stressful method for the fox itself.

And for the record, I'm a non-hunting vegetarian who lives slap bang in the centre of a city. I just prefer to make up my mind based on having studied what actually happens to the animal and which method allows it to express more of its natural instincts.

 

[clivex]

Ok - set numerous traps in the woods/along hedgerows. Catch any number of animals that aren't nececcarily foxes, stress them hugely when they have no means of escape and eventually joe bloggs comes round ( with the cost of this, at most would be once or twice a day) to let them out, assuming they haven't died from shock/panic. Not entirely sure that's a nicer way to do it than being in its own habitat, but if you'd rather that....
Or
Block up runs/set traps ( with all aforementioned lack of species discrimination and stress) and then gas whatever is in there over God knows how long and with the stress and panic going on? Really can't understand why people think either is a better way.


When I get to the cupboard Clive I shall dig out my stuff and give you the facts from where and when the nesting birds got knackered. It's not a new thing at all.

Pest control is not just killing.

ll accept the bird issue. Having an interest in our airborn friends that does hit home. Good posts by you both

look you and cruella are right in so far that some controls are certainly horrible but surely others are not? The fact will always remain that the "sport" has continued without the kill and even when the kill was in operation it was hardly big enough numbers to make a difference to the overall populations. Don't buy the necessary aspect

Nothing will shift the view that the hunting and killing for pleasure is disgusting to many of us. The shouting down its. "Class" thing is the same as those (Grey) who shout down any critisim of Islam as racist

its perfectly natural for two fighting dogs to rip themselves to shreds. But legal?. And you can turn the class thing in its head if that has to be the issue . Pikey "sport" etc

Its not the biggest issue and wish I hadn't bothered but if we are talking about countryside problems aren't inbreds pests too? Drooling half wits with big ears and their knobs out at every opportunity? Straw dogs and missing kids and what have you

 

[Tanlic]

Foxes are not afforded protection from human control measures such as 7 Irons or baseball bats.

However the law does prevent the use of poisons or illegal traps or snares to control foxes, and it is illegal to shoot them in urban areas such as parks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzo1DMi14JY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VjuEWTapPog

who suffered more the Chicken the owner or the fox

 

[Len Madeiros]

Hounds by themselves could control fox populations, but humans get involved and turn the control into a sport. That bit is not right.

 

[Cruella]

I disagree though that the intention of the vast, vast majority of people who follow the hunt is to take pleasure in the kill. That's not the primary purpose of their day. Most of them won't ever see a kill and won't mind if the fox gets away at the end of the day. The reason they hunt is to ride an unchartered course over terrain they wouldn't normally have access to. They have no idea at the start of the day whether they're in for hours of hanging about and trotting from one blank covert to the next, or a thrilling six mile gallop over hedges that make the National look like a novice hurdle. It's that uncertainty that sets hunting apart as an equestrian experience. Every other arranged event you do with your horse is marked out for you before you even start, and even if you like to go hacking solo, most of the fields around you are private land or crops that you'd be trespassing over.

The hunt staff have a job to do because they're providing a service to the farmers, so they prefer to see a kill but more in a respectful "job well done" kind of way than any bloodlust.

 

[Grasshopper]

Thank you very much for your lucid and knowledgable contribution to the thread, Cruella.

As I said originally, I hold no opinion on countryside matters, unlike the idiot Clivex, who seems to be an expert on such things, despite the fact that he lives under a bridge on Richmond High Street.

 

[Len Madeiros]

I don't think chasing a fox with hounds, horses, humans and cars IS an effective way of culling foxes. And those that miss the hunt now have their day out with a drag hunt anyway. I really don't see the issue here.

Even if there is no pleasure derived from a kill, there is a sporting element attached to a hunt (fukc knows how) and enjoyment is derived.