Horse Racing and its relationship with Foxhunting

[Cruella]

I don't think chasing a fox with hounds, horses, humans and cars IS an effective way of culling foxes. And those that miss the hunt now have their day out with a drag hunt anyway. I really don't see the issue here.

Even if there is no pleasure derived from a kill, there is a sporting element attached to a hunt (fukc knows how) and enjoyment is derived.

The "issue", for those of us who truly love and respect animals for their own sake, is that the Hunting Act is a piece of bad legislation, brought into being through class politics rather than a true concern for animal welfare (as evidenced by the total disregard for the input of veterinary professionals into the White Paper), which is impossible to police/enforce meaningfully and which has not saved the life of a single fox. All it has meant is more foxes wounded by the gun and dying the resulting unpleasant death or controlled by farmers taking matters into their own hands and employing equally illegal but more stealthy and less humane methods.

 

[clivex]

So if there is no buzz from the kill whats all that smearing of blood about then

 

[Cruella]

It's an old initiation tradition that I, for one, would happily see come to an end. It was becoming less widespread amongst hunts before the ban anyway.

I do find it a mixture of amusing and slightly irritating that people who won't accept the visual impression of a horse race until it has been quantified down with "evidence" into inches and percentages of a second, and who argue vehemently in support of keeping the whip and the Grand National, are happy to dismiss an entire country pursuit on very little actual knowledge or evidence beyond "s'cruel, innit?"

 

[Len Madeiros]

The "issue", for those of us who truly love and respect animals for their own sake, is that the Hunting Act is a piece of bad legislation, brought into being through class politics rather than a true concern for animal welfare (as evidenced by the total disregard for the input of veterinary professionals into the White Paper), which is impossible to police/enforce meaningfully and which has not saved the life of a single fox. All it has meant is more foxes wounded by the gun and dying the resulting unpleasant death or controlled by farmers taking matters into their own hands and employing equally illegal but more stealthy and less humane methods.

I don't think anyone argued that a ban on fox hunting would save the life of one fox; after all, hunting with dogs is not the best way to catch a fox. Maybe to kill a fox, but the whole set up is overall very inefficient.

I'm not sure I genuinely reconcile a person's concern for animal welfare and a like of fox hunting. Btw, I haven't once used class as an issue or an insult.

 

[Len Madeiros]

And I really do think us townies get a bad press, just because we don't live in rural communities. We do have different perspectives, of course - particularly on human nature and treatment of animals - that are no less relevant just because we live amongst street lighting and wine bars.

 

[trudij]

I don't like the townies vs country folk comparisons that people on both sides bring up - I think it just adds fuel to the toffs and paupers brigade and I also find it quite rude - just because you live in the countryside doesn't mean you partake or agree with the things that happen, likewise people who are more urban.

 

[Len Madeiros]

I don't like the townies vs country folk comparisons that people on both sides bring up - I think it just adds fuel to the toffs and paupers brigade and I also find it quite rude - just because you live in the countryside doesn't mean you partake or agree with the things that happen, likewise people who are more urban.

Agreed.

 

[clivex]

It's an old initiation tradition that I, for one, would happily see come to an end. It was becoming less widespread amongst hunts before the ban anyway.

I do find it a mixture of amusing and slightly irritating that people who won't accept the visual impression of a horse race until it has been quantified down with "evidence" into inches and percentages of a second, and who argue vehemently in support of keeping the whip and the Grand National, are happy to dismiss an entire country pursuit on very little actual knowledge or evidence beyond "s'cruel, innit?"

???

the fact that is becoming "less widespread" doesn't exactly counter the argument that no one gets pleasure out of this

as of the second point what's that got to do with anything? Sorry but that's dismal whataboutary. And how do you know what my or any one else's view of the whip and the national is? I would not normally answer the point because it is completely irrelevant but for e record I would happily see the national disappear tomorrow

 

[Cruella]

I don't think it's any more irreconcilable than a concern for animal welfare and horse racing, given the number of horses who die every year in the name of our sport. Or professing a concern for animal welfare and continuing to eat meat, given the appalling practices that take place in some (not all) slaughterhouses and the inherent stress involved in the transportation and penning processes.

My personal philosophy is based on how the animal lives and dies, as far as possible considering actual evidence not just emotive rhetoric. Fox hunting is more natural, from the perspective of the fox, than the alternatives and so I can support it - or at least not agree with banning it - and still call myself an animal lover. It doesn't actually make a ha'pporth of difference to the fox whether there is a group of people on horses behind the hounds. In the same way as I don't think a quick, comparatively painless death on the track after a pampered if short life is the worst fate that can befall a horse, especially when it has been allowed to express its instinct - to run - during that life, and also with the knowledge that racing is doing everything it can to increase safety and welfare, I can support racing and consider myself an animal lover. But at the same time I don't have the time or money to source ethically farmed and slaughtered meat, and I don't feel I can support the unethical practices that are still too widespread in the industry so that's why I'm vegetarian and why one of the charities I donate to is Compassion in World Farming, to try to improve welfare standards.

 

[clivex]

the last point I will make is that this is down to intent. There is no intent to kill for fun in horse racing. There is in bullfighting, dog fighting (will someone have the guts not to follow the crowd and answer the point onthat one please????? Thought not ) and of course fox hunting

 

[Len Madeiros]

But how natural is it for a fox to be hunted by hounds, horses, humans and cars?

 

[clivex]

Yes. Was going to drop this but this seeming idea that the fox being torn to shreds is "natural" because they are essentially just animals and prey ... grates frankly

Lets put it this way. We are animals. We have been and sometimes are prey. So if a red coated inbred is chased across a field by some saboteurs to receive a right good kicking before having his head nailed to a post... I'm sure we can just put it down to natural behaviour

 

[trudij]

At risk of sounding too clinical about it ( and therefore totally heartless) By the time any tearing ( into however many pieces or shapes) happens, the fox is long dead. I really don't see why it's so hard for you to understand that. It is not physically possible for the fox to still be alive at the time - unlike any of the other methods of despatch which are long, drawn out and in my view unacceptable.

As for the other - it would depend entirely on wether or not the sabs had legal access to the land, most of the time they are trespassing. For the majority of the sabs it does seem to be their natural behaviour - I've never come across a more repugnant body of humans masquerading as "animal lovers"
Give me a pack of anti hunt people over sabs any day. At least antis are civilised humans who don't set out to cause damage to the horses and hounds.

 

[treaty]

The idea that hunting is the "least stressful" method of culling foxes is a bit loose for me. I'd imagine a swift bullet to the head would be more effective and less stressful. Does anybody have any academic or scientific literature to support that hunting is the least stressful method for the fox apart from personal opinions?

 

[Desert Orchid]

I thought research had offered significant evidence - if not proof - that fox population controls itself when the're left alone and that numbers only increase in areas where they are hunted.

I have no issue with drag hunts. It sounds like good exercise for dogs and horses alike.

I do allow myself a little chuckle, though, at the dress code of the people who take part in much the same way as I do when I see football fans f@nnying about in their team's football shirts, or racing fans who buy (and actually wear!!) scarves in the colours of a horse. WTF is that all about??

 

[trudij]

It's no different to people going racing or to any other social occasion over Autumn and winter, you want to look nice, be warm and be safe! Most hunts couldn't give a flying fox what people wear, but it's curtesy to be clean and tidy.

When I excavate my way into the cupboard I think I've got some data about stress levels in my work, and im also pretty sure there are others ( weighted in both directions, depending on who wrote them no doubt!!)

Interestingly, the Burns report said that hunting with hounds "compromised the welfare of the quarry" but also concluded that it could not say that hunting was cruel. What it didn't do ( because it wasn't in the remit) was to compare stress levels between the various methods of dealing with foxes - so we are back to what your conscience accepts as the best answer, as outlined earlier.

 

[trudij]

Ps - when Raisin becomes the next famous heart throb horse, I'm banking on all of you lot wearing yellow and purple scarves when he runs [emoji12]