Iraq
- Thread starter BrianH
- Start date
BrianH
At the Start
They don't ask your political views. There is one on "Moral turpitude". I've checked on turpitude in the dictionary and it means "a vile or depraved act". It's a bit worrying because I believe that based on the statutes of on or two states in the USA I may have on occasion been a bit of a turpitude fan. But I put "No" anyway.
They do ask whether you intend to overthrow the government of the United States. The late Gilbert Harding got himself delayed in immigration for some time when he responded "Sole purpose of visit".
They do ask whether you intend to overthrow the government of the United States. The late Gilbert Harding got himself delayed in immigration for some time when he responded "Sole purpose of visit".
BrianH
At the Start
Simon Jenkins says that Iraq now is in a worse state than before the invasion:
We have turned Iraq into the most hellish place on earth
We have turned Iraq into the most hellish place on earth
Economically?
Is this a wind up?
The soviet union was a threat to america economically?
Yes. I remember all those great soviet exports :lol:
Pity they couldnt even feed themselves though. Still a economic giant would not be worried about relying on its main rival to supply it with basic commodities to feed its popualtion would it?
Warbler: re PNAC - Brian's well up on this and first alerted us to its existence some months ago, when we were in a similar discussion. You've drawn out its core philosophy pretty well. I can see where 9/11 has entered its play list of things to happen in order to begin to achieve its goal, too.
It also would make more sense of the US decision not to pursue the Gulf War (not the current invasion) into Iraq at the time, but to leave the ending open for future exploitation. Many of us wondered at the time why a firm military conclusion wasn't sought and I think we are now able to form the view that it was another open door of 'opportunity' as per PNAC's agenda. Clearly, PNAC had to be some time in gestation prior to formation and publication, time had to be used in order to winnow out people like Colin Powell and install suitable replacements, but it pretty much echoes the film 'Star Chamber' now.
If PNAC is well enough known and understood by people in the 'general public' like yourself, why hasn't it been fully exposed for the imperialist agenda it is, through various media? I don't see it being heatedly debated on any of our more interesting debating programmes, while we tie ourselves in pointless knots over the non-Islamic issue of veils.
It also would make more sense of the US decision not to pursue the Gulf War (not the current invasion) into Iraq at the time, but to leave the ending open for future exploitation. Many of us wondered at the time why a firm military conclusion wasn't sought and I think we are now able to form the view that it was another open door of 'opportunity' as per PNAC's agenda. Clearly, PNAC had to be some time in gestation prior to formation and publication, time had to be used in order to winnow out people like Colin Powell and install suitable replacements, but it pretty much echoes the film 'Star Chamber' now.
If PNAC is well enough known and understood by people in the 'general public' like yourself, why hasn't it been fully exposed for the imperialist agenda it is, through various media? I don't see it being heatedly debated on any of our more interesting debating programmes, while we tie ourselves in pointless knots over the non-Islamic issue of veils.
(Just for the record, I'm keeping to not responding to clivex, whose contributions to this as a racing forum are almost nil, but whose main agenda appears to be to pop up very promptly as soon as a fresh posting occurs on this subject. I think he needs to be reminded of his own previous postings, since it's only in the lattermost that he's decided to revise his vilifications to 'extreme' Islam and 'fundamentalist' Islam, which are not necessarily the same thing, of course. There are plenty of fundies who wouldn't dream of killing anyone, let alone themselves in the process.)
Actually, I'd like to ask you, Brian, whether the assertion that you could set up a news network in the USA AND SAY WHAT YOU LIKE (clivex's capitals)? Could you set up a full-on Red Radio and do nothing but spout Leftist propaganda all day, praising atheism, vilifying the current US Government and urging its citizens to take to the streets to overthrow it, and vote for the Left? Come to think of it, I really don't know the answer to this - is there a registered Communist Party (probably called by any other name) in the USA? How long would it take before you were 'investigated', noted that you planned to overthrow the US Govt. and clapped in an orange jumpsuit? I don't think the 'right to free speech' extends quite as far as some people imagine.
Actually, I'd like to ask you, Brian, whether the assertion that you could set up a news network in the USA AND SAY WHAT YOU LIKE (clivex's capitals)? Could you set up a full-on Red Radio and do nothing but spout Leftist propaganda all day, praising atheism, vilifying the current US Government and urging its citizens to take to the streets to overthrow it, and vote for the Left? Come to think of it, I really don't know the answer to this - is there a registered Communist Party (probably called by any other name) in the USA? How long would it take before you were 'investigated', noted that you planned to overthrow the US Govt. and clapped in an orange jumpsuit? I don't think the 'right to free speech' extends quite as far as some people imagine.
Here we go...
Hey Borat, have you noticed the ethnicity of many of those on PNAC?
Its a CONSPIRACY isnt it?
Just one thought though...
A community will only ever get respect from the oustide world when it takes responsibility for its members actions. what is it? 80% of muslims believe that 9/11 was a jewish conspiracy
You know what that means?
NO RESPECT
Perhaps you'd be so good as to read the report Clivex before jumping to conclusions and playground name calling. The reference is clearly there, signed off by the people who went on to hold the major offices of state in the Defence Department.
The questions I wa saked about entering the USA were about whether I'd ever discriminated against anyone, (or something to that effect) followed by if I'd ever been a member of the Communist Party? :lol:
Must admit Kriz I was beginning to wonder who he was, approximately 70% of posts in the same forum, (on what shoudl be a minority area on a racing forum) and invariably on the same subject. A total of 10 in Racing, and illuminating they are too.
Krizon
YOU DID RESPOND BY ACCUSING ME OF SOMETHING THAT I HAD NOT SAID
YOU ACCUSED ME OF LABELLING ALL MUSLIMS THE SAME IN TERMS OF TERRORISM WHEN I HAD MADE IT CLEAR THAT THAT WAS NOT THE CASE
I am well aware that although 12% of Muslims supported 7/7 that emans that 88% didnt. Got it?
You are pathetic
YOU DID RESPOND BY ACCUSING ME OF SOMETHING THAT I HAD NOT SAID
YOU ACCUSED ME OF LABELLING ALL MUSLIMS THE SAME IN TERMS OF TERRORISM WHEN I HAD MADE IT CLEAR THAT THAT WAS NOT THE CASE
I am well aware that although 12% of Muslims supported 7/7 that emans that 88% didnt. Got it?
You are pathetic
Gosh, I feel so hurt and wounded now, I might just have to lie down for an hour. Can clivex actually respond without SHOUTING AND NAME-CALLING? I think we know the answer. 88% of which Muslims? British? British by what ethnicity? Worldwide? Including Pakistan and Afghanistan? And do you REALLY think that whatever poll you've drawn that stat from would have British Muslims yelping with glee at a bombing in this country? Do you really think people are so stupid that they'd say 'yes, it was a wonderful day - we struck at the Western imperialistic aggressor and we're delighted with the results'? Per-leeeeeze...
Must admit warbler i think there was a communist party reference on there (but i havent noticed it lately)
Bit stupid really given that as an idealogy it has comprehensively and spectacularly failed and is of no threat to anyone at all now
Bit stupid really given that as an idealogy it has comprehensively and spectacularly failed and is of no threat to anyone at all now
Found it for you Clivex, despite most of the sites purporting to it, being mysteriously unavailable when interrogated thus.
h34r: "Advanced forms of biological warfare that can target specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool"
- Rebuilding America's Defences, PNAC, Paul Wolfowitz
I'm sure I don't need to remind you who he is?
If you don't believe me?, then again, I'll extend the invitation to you to actually read the document. It wouldn't be out of place in terms of its aspirations with the works of literature that were coming out of Germany in the late 20's and 1930's, a movement of course that you insinuate that you despise. I'm struggling to think of many quasi political documents/ philosophies that allude to the possible destruction of whole races, and perhaps you ought to evaluate it in this context? Otherwise, I'd be interested to know how you interpret the phrase "Politically useful tool"? And again I'd be interested to know if you can't see ANY historical paralells? You see, I don't make these things up and reducing yourself to purile and infantile shouts for a nurse I fear, doesn't reflect well on the strength of your argument, nor knowledge on the subject
The technology to do this to the best of my knowledge was pioneered in South Africa with help from the usual corporate interests in the mid to late 1980's. It was roughly about the same time that an unholy alliance was brokered involving Israel supplying the Aparthied Regime with a nuclear weapon capable of being delivered by the Gabriel Missile. The system was tested and worked, and the RSA duly joined the nuclear family (albeit temporarily). The nuclear weapon has since been decommissioned, although privately I've been told it could be reassembled within a few weeks if it ever needed to be, but since the ANC have no real need for it, this is largely gesture politics imo.
Oh, okay, she says wearily, annoyed that she has to remind this useless, pathetic nut (his own epithets to others) of his own ramble:
October 24 4.49 pm
".... I don't care whether the arabs (sic) have been liberal enough to allow a little internal pisstaking. What I know is that they are doing their level best to intimidate any criticism of their beliefs. They are seeking to do this by violent threat in a society where free speech is valued."
Now, be honest, young man - do you see any reference there to 'extreme Islam'? And why pick on 'arabs'? The London bombings - which were considerably more than a 'threat' and caused death and horrible maiming - came from within this country, via British Muslims, whose ethnicity was very definitely not Arab.
Casting a slur against 'Arabs' is meaningless. You might as well say that all English people love football, it's that stupid an observation. I didn't consider we were having an argument - although that's probably the only way in which you feel you can address a subject - I was trying to have a discussion or even a reasoned debate with you. Unfortunately, you don't have any correct information, facts, or accredited sources that would invite me to believe you knew what you were talking about, so it makes it just your own personal polemic. To which you are very welcome.
October 24 4.49 pm
".... I don't care whether the arabs (sic) have been liberal enough to allow a little internal pisstaking. What I know is that they are doing their level best to intimidate any criticism of their beliefs. They are seeking to do this by violent threat in a society where free speech is valued."
Now, be honest, young man - do you see any reference there to 'extreme Islam'? And why pick on 'arabs'? The London bombings - which were considerably more than a 'threat' and caused death and horrible maiming - came from within this country, via British Muslims, whose ethnicity was very definitely not Arab.
Casting a slur against 'Arabs' is meaningless. You might as well say that all English people love football, it's that stupid an observation. I didn't consider we were having an argument - although that's probably the only way in which you feel you can address a subject - I was trying to have a discussion or even a reasoned debate with you. Unfortunately, you don't have any correct information, facts, or accredited sources that would invite me to believe you knew what you were talking about, so it makes it just your own personal polemic. To which you are very welcome.
This is seriously weird stuff
The idea that that there is a little freedom of speech as in the communist bloc is abolsutely ridiculous. Of course new technology reaches into our lives in a massive way but the idea that the americans are surveiling the population in the same way as the KGB or the stasi did is completely at odds with anyones experience of both countries. still if you want to believ that
As it happens, the vast majority of the american popualtion are extremely content to live there. I would reckon on say 99.9%? If they dont olike it there, they can leave (not many do of course...) Why bother heavily monitoring a generally happy popuation? I mean, not many people tehre would be advocating anything other tahn a prosperous democracy would they?
In the soviet bloc of course...things were rather different. Hey they even had a wall to keep them in! I think thats why they monitored heavily
The USA is more controlling and suspicious than most european countries. i dont trust Bush and wolfowitz is an extremist (in reference to your last post) But unlike the wonderful Soviet bloc, people are doing everything they can to get into the US. even from prosperous countries
Also, lets hope taht the genetic virus doesnt get into the hands of teh muslim extermists then. Because as it happens, and you may notice it if you go there, america is a multi racial country and is happy to remain the same way. Of course, some muslim states are alittle different arent they? Sudan?
It was in reference to your own point ffs. and it DOESNT label them all as terrorists
only mistake was that iranians are not arabs
No your not. You have barely answered one point made other than to accuse me of applying the same statement to all muslims which as you know is completely wrong
Im not sure what is or isnt reportable here and its not my style but if you persist with that....
... yes, you'll what? Report all you like: it's you who's been calling forum members a 'nut', 'pathetic' and 'useless' among other names, may I remind you. Who the heck mentioned Iranians? Not me. Of course they're not Arabs, and some of them ain't even Muslims.
What questions have you raised that anyone has failed to answer? When you ask me a question in a civil manner, without engaging in attempts at snide remarks and personal insult, I might decide to answer them. So far, you haven't. You're presented with a set of facts which you simply make snarky remarks about, rather than address them with counter-facts. That's called a discussion, or even a debate. It doesn't have to be, in your own words, an 'argument' and there isn't a winner or a loser - this isn't a staying handicap (though it feels like one), it's a topic. If someone has a bunch of facts which I don't have, I might change my views on a certain subject. In fact, I've been well-informed on a number of issues since joining this forum years ago. You, on the other hand, seem only to have a pre-determined outcome in mind and are not genuinely interested in a good, all-round (yes, possibly heated, but not cheaply insulting) examination of the subject. However, you'll want the Final Word on this, so here's a line for you to put it in:
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What questions have you raised that anyone has failed to answer? When you ask me a question in a civil manner, without engaging in attempts at snide remarks and personal insult, I might decide to answer them. So far, you haven't. You're presented with a set of facts which you simply make snarky remarks about, rather than address them with counter-facts. That's called a discussion, or even a debate. It doesn't have to be, in your own words, an 'argument' and there isn't a winner or a loser - this isn't a staying handicap (though it feels like one), it's a topic. If someone has a bunch of facts which I don't have, I might change my views on a certain subject. In fact, I've been well-informed on a number of issues since joining this forum years ago. You, on the other hand, seem only to have a pre-determined outcome in mind and are not genuinely interested in a good, all-round (yes, possibly heated, but not cheaply insulting) examination of the subject. However, you'll want the Final Word on this, so here's a line for you to put it in:
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Ah - THAT bit! :lol: Yes, in the context of the Danish cartoons causing offence, that was an example which you then derided, by saying you didn't care how much pisstaking the Arabs did, they were still bent on being a violent threat to our society. (See several posts above.) Now, what question do you want to ask me?
Lee Chater
At the Start
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2005
- Messages
- 366
On a lighter note, could I borrow that line K, I've just washed some of my smalls
Now this really does interest me Clivex.
Tell me please?
Do you consider yourself to be intelligent? Do you consider yourself to be well informed and possess an interrogating mind? Do you consider yourself to be able to extract salient information, analyse it accurately? Do you consider yourself to be capable of independent thought, and able to form a balanced opinion based on the evidence and your appraisal of it? If you answer no, then fair enough, I apologise in advance, you need read no further.
If however you believe that you fit this description, are you not just a little bit concerned drawing on your appreciation of historical precedent, that men you variously describe as "extremist" and to take you slightly out of verbatim but in context "untrustworthy" are contemplating the possibility of advancing a bio weapon that will discriminate amongst races with the implied purpose of potentially threatening to exterminate them en masse? My reading of "politcally useful tool". It's not the woird useful I major on here, but rather 'political', though it doesn't require a great leap in imagination to see that political could easily be supplanted by militararily.
Now were it you or I advocating this line, then quite rightly few people will lose sleep over it. The fact that's a founding member of the PNAC who was hand picked by another founding member (Donald Rumsfeld) to be his Deputy.
Rumsfeld lets not forget is the Defence Secretary of the powerful nation, militarily speaking in recorded history. Let's not be so naive either to pretend that these people can be voted out. They've lost popular votes before, and still prevailed. There reach into the various stratas of the American opinion forming industry ensures they'll hav ean omni prescence. You will doubtless be aware of the exit and development strategies that such 'movements' have in place, especially when they are backed by serious wealthy and powerful corporations. The names and faces might change, the philosophy and momentum won't. But I'm sure you're aware of this.Now drawing on your vast wealth of knowledge, can you not see any historical precedent in the PNAC? a book perhaps? when or who would you most associate with rising to the top of a military minded regime that openly advocated world domination and a final solution for perceived undesirables.
well the answer to that is obvious but soemtimes its all too easy to pick up the fringe elements of any administration and assume that those are the underlying real views. Imaginations run wild and frnakly the truth of the matter is alot more boring and prosaic
the idea that the USA is heading down the same path asHitler bears little scrutiny. There is fading public will for the war in iraq, let alone anywhere else. And america now is a very different place to germany 1934
America, after this episode is more likely to become isolationist i believe. In fact american culture and history has often demostrated that to be their most natural instinct
those neo cons may have touched on some unpleasant issues and ideas but assuming that that will come to pass is another matter
And assuming that this supposed virus can be used doesnt mean it will be. They have had nuclear weapons for 50 years.....
the idea that the USA is heading down the same path asHitler bears little scrutiny. There is fading public will for the war in iraq, let alone anywhere else. And america now is a very different place to germany 1934
America, after this episode is more likely to become isolationist i believe. In fact american culture and history has often demostrated that to be their most natural instinct
those neo cons may have touched on some unpleasant issues and ideas but assuming that that will come to pass is another matter
And assuming that this supposed virus can be used doesnt mean it will be. They have had nuclear weapons for 50 years.....