Irish Racing in chaos !!
- Thread starter eric c
- Start date
granger
Senior Jockey
Yep, my dad knows him
Not at all.
I was just curious as to why a story with such massive potential ramifications had drawn so little comment. I just thought I'd experiment then, and lobbed a few words into the archive to see how much similar stories had generated. That's when I discovered that 627 posts had been generated regarding Zarooni and Henderson and at the time this one had managed just 14, with Grey telling us it was old news, and you deflecting the emphasis into rugby.
I haven't seen any document, any more than I'd expect any of you have, any more than I expect any of you had prior access to the Henderson or Zarooni documentation either, but that didn't seem to stop the flow opinion
OK, Grey has since dug up the original Fenton thread which is comparable in length to Zarooni, and there is variety in it as you'd expect. For the most part it's balanced albeit some try to suggest the story is a media failure, and there's also a bit of silly language, and what i can only describe as myopic nationalism (the hear no, see no, speak no) but you're going to get ebb and flow in any thread as it develops, and there will also be legitimate distraction and banter too. The over all tenet of the thread was consistent with concern though and some appropriate denunciations. I thought it was pretty fair to be honest, and outside of the odd post, mostly devoid of apologists and silliness
It struck me however that only the original poster was really prepared to consider the unthinkable
From a personal perspective, I gave up betting on Irish races some time ago (found France a much more lucrative alternative) so I don't have any particular issues. Don't think I've placed a bet on an Irish race for getting on for 5 years (OK might have had the occasional 1 or 2 bets a year - no more though) and a suspicion as to its integrity was important in that decision (albeit I'll admit that this was an easier decision to make when I saw how my French results on a Sunday compared, so perhaps I'm not so gallant)
Anyway there are some issues here of looking the other way I reckon. You say yourself that;
"A story with this scope will need someone with expertise and grit"
and yet in post 16 you also state with apparent confidence that
"Anyone guilty of abuse will be rightly punished."
I'm not sure how you reconcile the two? The second sounds like the sort of 'party line' we hear from our politicians before that set up an enquiry to whitewash something. By your own admission you think the whole thing hinges on whether four journalists have guile and determination to dig away at a powerful plutocracy
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granger
Senior Jockey
I don't see any issue here.
Clive's question was if anyone in Irish media would report it. My comment is that for the story to be covered correctly it will need proper reporting and not that of anyone in the racing press.
A full analysis by someone like Walsh will ensure this, someone with experience. Surely that is what you want - full definite disclosure?
Yes and No
In the first case we shouldn't be dependent on journos (thats' the No) but equally I'll acknowledge that when they aren't star gazing they can perform a valuable task in going into areas where others dare not tread (that's the yes). In this case Walsh has built up a pretty impressive portfolio of work in this area and we have to hope he's prepared to dig away aided by others, in much the same way as I hope that our own fourth estate (though very doubt they will as I think they're complicit) might dig away at much more serious things going on in the UK
Clive's question about the reporting in the Irish media is out of chronological sequence with your own assertion that
"Anyone guilty of abuse will be rightly punished."
Unless there's some sacrificial offering made, I'm far from convinced that the incentive exists for the Irish authorities to lift the lid (in much the same way as the British establishment won't). The contradiction I therefore see is how confident you can be, when those leading the investigation are journalists and so far to date at least, the authorities have demonstrated and indifference (certainly the racing authorities)
I have little doubt that FIFA isn't far off being more corrupt than ISIS (at least ISIS say where their revenues go, and their tax rates are lower than those levied by the Iraqi government) but equally I have little doubt that FIFA will survive for so long as its only one or two sections of the worlds media holding them to account (the FBI might be different). For this reason I'm far from convinced that Ireland will address issues within horseracing until such time as others join the investigation.
With 62,000 doses discovered plus at least 12 trainers, on just one raid, the whole sport should be seriously close to being closed down. My own fear is that it's systemic and widespread
Warbler, yourself and clivex have wrongly accused the Irish members here of trying to pretend there was no problem. Don't you think you should show some humility, take a step back and instead of continuing to pursue an Irish rabbit down a burrow consider the wider context of this problem?
The fact is racing has a serious problem, something which most of us wouldn't have been aware of say five years ago. Until then we would have said there had been just a few rogues, operating at the lower end of the scale. But now we've seen misdemeanours at the highest level. Champion trainer Nicky Henderson and his vet were done for routinely giving some horses injections on the morning of their races to prevent bleeding. Another trainer Al Zarooni was done for doping horses, one of which was Enke, which won a classic and denied another horse a Triple Crown in the process.
The Australian authorities have declared that they intend to introduce higher standards because they realise their rules are a joke. The US has the most drug-tolerant culture of all but still doesn't intend to do anything about it.
In Ireland the full scale of the Fenton/Hughes scandal is untold. We have racing authorities who said and did nothing until the legal system had its say, something which took so long that it already felt like history when the verdict finally came. The media didn't even spot it when these cases reached the courts. It seems John Hughes the vet imported enough steroids for 62,000 doses over a period of around 10 years and a notebook with addresses of 12 trainers was found.
The biggest problem is that some steroids which act over a long period can nevertheless go undetected within days of being administered. This means controls are needed not just on horses in training but also out of training and before they go into any kind of training.
What to do next? On this thread mr clivex says every effort should be made to go after any Irish trainers who cheated. On a different thread, talking about Henderson, he dismissed such notions and said it was more important to deal with preventing such problems in the future.
I am seriously worried about the integrity of racing. Is it enough that a new control system is introduced and the past is forgotten? And can any reasonable control system be good enough to keep the sport clean and fair?
The fact is racing has a serious problem, something which most of us wouldn't have been aware of say five years ago. Until then we would have said there had been just a few rogues, operating at the lower end of the scale. But now we've seen misdemeanours at the highest level. Champion trainer Nicky Henderson and his vet were done for routinely giving some horses injections on the morning of their races to prevent bleeding. Another trainer Al Zarooni was done for doping horses, one of which was Enke, which won a classic and denied another horse a Triple Crown in the process.
The Australian authorities have declared that they intend to introduce higher standards because they realise their rules are a joke. The US has the most drug-tolerant culture of all but still doesn't intend to do anything about it.
In Ireland the full scale of the Fenton/Hughes scandal is untold. We have racing authorities who said and did nothing until the legal system had its say, something which took so long that it already felt like history when the verdict finally came. The media didn't even spot it when these cases reached the courts. It seems John Hughes the vet imported enough steroids for 62,000 doses over a period of around 10 years and a notebook with addresses of 12 trainers was found.
The biggest problem is that some steroids which act over a long period can nevertheless go undetected within days of being administered. This means controls are needed not just on horses in training but also out of training and before they go into any kind of training.
What to do next? On this thread mr clivex says every effort should be made to go after any Irish trainers who cheated. On a different thread, talking about Henderson, he dismissed such notions and said it was more important to deal with preventing such problems in the future.
I am seriously worried about the integrity of racing. Is it enough that a new control system is introduced and the past is forgotten? And can any reasonable control system be good enough to keep the sport clean and fair?
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Did I?
As ever having, to post a retort to yet another snide assumption. I expect its news to edgt and granger that they are no longer irish
and if I did say that I am very surprised. That sounds like your usual wilful misinterpretation. Why shouldn't trainers who have been cheating be "gone after"? And why worry what was said on the Henderson thread anyway. Why spend time looking at that? If you think me or anyone else would suggest not chasing up a list of trainers using steroids in the uk, then you are out of your mind.
Really tiresome. Should stick to the point in question.
there has to be a new control but there should also be heavier penalties. Complete permenant loss of licence for directly performance enhancing drugs would be a start.
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We have racing authorities who said and did nothing until the legal system had its say, something which took so long that it already felt like history when the verdict finally came. The media didn't even spot it when these cases reached the courts.
This is what causes greatest concern and is very much warblers point. I cannot believe for one minute that the media were completely unaware of the cases and of course the authorities look like rabbits in headlights. The difficulty is in a smaller world of authorities and media (scottish parliament building scandal being a case in point) then relationships can be just a bit too close.
This is what causes greatest concern and is very much warblers point. I cannot believe for one minute that the media were completely unaware of the cases and of course the authorities look like rabbits in headlights. The difficulty is in a smaller world of authorities and media (scottish parliament building scandal being a case in point) then relationships can be just a bit too close.
You obviously think everyone on here is stupid. You waded in behind Warbler, who was claiming that Irish members were selective in their concerns about doping and were trying to deflect criticism of Irish racing, and you were utterly wrong to do so.
And this is what you had to say about the Henderson affair, on the Fenton thread:
I know this is tiresome for you, and you ask why does it matter? Well it doesn't matter at all, I suppose. But if you don't take your own posts seriously why would you expect anyone else to take them seriously?
To get back to the main point, the Turf Club already announced in the spring that they would have new controls in place for the start of the new year, so the fact they are only announcing now the establishment of a working party to examine the question is not impressive.
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Thats emphatically NOT saying that past users of drugs should not be prosecuted. It was in relation to comments made about the sentence given to Henderson, which I also felt was too light. But that matter was obviously closed and there was no need to keep going on about it in relation to Fenton
Talk about wilfully misinterpreting
Who could take your snidey posts seriously after such jaundiced interpretation. You really did spend time trying to find something that wasnt there didnt you?
Also I clearly (again) qualified that some irish posters are right on top of this but the thread was remarkably inactive given the nature and significance of the story which is potentially far more explosive than any of the cases so far
Talk about wilfully misinterpreting
Who could take your snidey posts seriously after such jaundiced interpretation. You really did spend time trying to find something that wasnt there didnt you?
Also I clearly (again) qualified that some irish posters are right on top of this but the thread was remarkably inactive given the nature and significance of the story which is potentially far more explosive than any of the cases so far
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Why cant they get measures in place immediately? It should take a few days only to announce that unannounced spot checks will commence immediately and it will include horses "out of training"
Even if it doesnt produce any results it will go some way to making offenders think again.
Even if it doesnt produce any results it will go some way to making offenders think again.
I suggest you inform yourself properly before doing any more spouting
http://www.independent.ie/sport/horse-racing/turf-club-to-step-up-war-against-doping-29917134.html
You really are getting on my nerves
it was in response to you post which said
To get back to the main point, the Turf Club already announced in the spring that they would have new controls in place for the start of the new year, so the fact they are only announcing now the establishment of a working party to examine the question is not impressive.
If that has moved on this morning then good
I made the mistake of taking your post seriously
it was in response to you post which said
To get back to the main point, the Turf Club already announced in the spring that they would have new controls in place for the start of the new year, so the fact they are only announcing now the establishment of a working party to examine the question is not impressive.
If that has moved on this morning then good
I made the mistake of taking your post seriously
Indeed it's true you have nothing useful to say. And we've already seen that as far as you're concerned whether you stand by earlier posts or not is unimportant.
I will say just one more thing. The fact that you went trawling through page after page of previous threads to attempt to find a post to suggest double standards and even then getting it completely wrong in your eagerness to do so, tells us all we need to know. Doesnt it?
EC1
On a break
i wish you two would get together and have a nice big kiss
eric c
At the Start
www.irishtimes.com/sport/tipping-point-doping-is-getting-increasingly-hard-to-ignore-1.2029207
Hopefully this link will get us back on track ??
Today's opinion from Brian O'Connor who has been a thorn in Irish Turf Club's establishment's side for some time .
A culture change is necessary he says --- an admission that for 10 years -- 2002 --- 2012 Nitrotain was being used in Ireland but never detected is what the Turf Club need to acknowledge if they are interested in restoring credibility.
Hopefully this link will get us back on track ??
Today's opinion from Brian O'Connor who has been a thorn in Irish Turf Club's establishment's side for some time .
A culture change is necessary he says --- an admission that for 10 years -- 2002 --- 2012 Nitrotain was being used in Ireland but never detected is what the Turf Club need to acknowledge if they are interested in restoring credibility.