icebreaker
At the Start
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ISIS...Islamic State Victims
- Thread starter harry
- Start date
Funny you should say that, as I was considering earlier today whether or not the account might actually be an abuse bot with a limited number of insults that's simply been programmed to post conservative party lines. It's currently being recalibrated since they're performing a u-turn and it doesn't know what to say on the substantive issues and is therefore looking for distraction instead.
bleep ... bleep .... u turn .... bleep ... can't admit mistake ... bleep ... Dave is great ... bleep .... Welsh keep singing ....
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This conclusion kind of builds on something I raised a year ago
Are we saying a world war is inevitable?
If we are (and I realise you're leaving it open) do we reach a point when we start thinking about when it best suits us to take it on our terms?
It's dismal I know, but then doom and gloom is hardly a crime, it's just a dystopic conclusion
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In another related development, and bearing in mind that two plus two equals five is a well known mathematical formula;
On Monday Abdelalhamid Abaaoud was being described as the "mastermind" (subsquently downgraded to a "ringleader") but the French authorities said they thought he was in Syria (this kind of public disinformation has been used before to wrong foot someone who you're closing in on). Anyway, on Wednesday they found him in St Denis and after successfully killing him and his accomplices told us that they were acting on information received from a "non European government"
In 1987 Johnathon Pollard was convicted in the USA to life imprisonment for spying on behalf of Israel. The American's had tried to use Pollard as a bargaining chip with Israel before, it is something their government periodically raises, but it didn't happen. Anyway, 48 hours after the unnamed non European government might have tipped off the French as to the whereabouts of their target, Pollard is released?
Merci?
On Monday Abdelalhamid Abaaoud was being described as the "mastermind" (subsquently downgraded to a "ringleader") but the French authorities said they thought he was in Syria (this kind of public disinformation has been used before to wrong foot someone who you're closing in on). Anyway, on Wednesday they found him in St Denis and after successfully killing him and his accomplices told us that they were acting on information received from a "non European government"
In 1987 Johnathon Pollard was convicted in the USA to life imprisonment for spying on behalf of Israel. The American's had tried to use Pollard as a bargaining chip with Israel before, it is something their government periodically raises, but it didn't happen. Anyway, 48 hours after the unnamed non European government might have tipped off the French as to the whereabouts of their target, Pollard is released?
Merci?
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The other comment I'd add looking at the footage again, is that they don't really seem to be smashing the infrastructure up to the extent that you'd think they ought to be. One bomb at a time against one target etc I suspect this is simply lack of firepower.
Look at what the American's did in 1991 to the retreating Iraqi's at the Mugla Gap (spelling?). If the American's had been conducting these raids (and of course they could have been had they chosen to) I think they'd pretty well destroyed every single last tanker or oil thingy within 30 minutes. It also occurred to me that the RAF used to have a weapon called JP233 which was a runway denial device made up of a series of bomblets that would have been ideal to knock out about 20-30 transporters in a single straight line drop.
It's going to take the Russians months to work their way through that lot at this rate, and of course they aren't going to be so co-operatively parked in the future. It probably explains why they're aiming at the source (the refineries). Sad thing of course is that whatever emerges from Syria is going to need that infrastructure in tact, but then this is war I guess, and destruction pretty well goes with the job description
Having read up a little bit more from a few aviation sites though it appears that in the last 48 hours Iranian F14's (yes they do fly them) have been spotted escorting Russian bombers through Iranian airspace. This should make Russia's job easier. Until now they've been having to fly quite a lot of the long range stuff through international airspace which means going out over the Baltic, into the North Sea, down the French coast and then into the Mediterranean for a 9000km round trip. You might recall that in the early half of this year they started flying what was reported as provocative flights towards the UK? We can probably see these for what they were now. Putin was lining up direct bombing support in Syria back then.
It would certainly be helpful if someone would provide the Russians with overflight permissions, and with the Iranians turning up at Vienna last week for the first time, one is inclined to wonder if some kind of agreement wasn't hatched between all the parties there?
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From some one who didn't know when the gulf war was
and boring. There will not be a "world war"
Why do you have to bring cameron into every single post?
why is ot foolish for the uk to bomb isis and yet not Putin? You seem to have blathered on and on about how bombinb is useless but when it's nostalgia for the soviet Union somehow that goes out of the window
and not interested in speculation about war games because you know no more about the effectiveness of the attacks from any side than anyone else. no one outside the military does and they probably are uncertain too
EC1
On a break
i'm not really seeing it like that either..in fact if there is one positive out of Isis it might be the fact that it brings countries together in a way we have not seen since WW2..all against a common enemy.
the opposition isn't strong enough to consider it a world war..its a dangerous nuisance without the strength or backbone to actually directly try and invade a strong country..having a few arseholes implanted as sleepers shooting and blowing up unarmed civilians are the actions of a group of people who are no real threat in a world sense imo.
We will always be at war with terrorism..so if fighting Isis is classed as a "world war"..then we been having one for a number of years.
icebreaker
At the Start
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I thought that, also. I would have thought that using some form of cluster munitions would have returned a much greater "knock-out" efficiency rather than the apparent use of single targeted bombs against individual vehicles.
Still, it is verified that over 600 oiltankers have been destroyed in the past five days, so maybe the sorties are achieving success. 600 is a lot of oil-specific transports; there can't be many functional ones still left in ISIS-land. Perhaps the footage we saw was condensed to just picture the beginning/first-strike of the attacks, and we didn't get to see the complete show?
EC1
On a break
Clive
I am not saying there weren't a few that supported the Ebdo killings..i'm sure there were...maybe they have p1ssed off to Syria hopefully...Muslims have no tolerance of people poking fun at their religion..but lets not pretend that any other religious person relishes that....i've met a few religious types through the years..and boy do they not like their religion mocked. I think all religion should be mocked..i've no time for it ..but thats just me. You brought up Life Of Brian..fook me there was a massive outcry about that ..many people failed to find that funny..so there is no way that Muslims are going to get polled like they have and some will say they understood the motivation..again i'll say thats not condoning killing people.
What we have to do is make it clear that if they live in a multiculrural society..then religion mocking is part and parcel of it..get used to or it or ignore it. I would imagine all those people polled ignored it.they didn't like it..but ignored it.
If you can find a way to encourage people to laugh at something they don't find funny..then let me know how thats possible.
What makes me laugh a bit here Clive is..i'm not religious in any way..and yet i can see the situation here without tarring all with same brush. I've got no axe to grind..no need to defend anyone or any faith..i'd scrap all religions if i could...arguing over who's god is better than who elses is the area of stupidity to me.
But one thing i have learned is that tolerance is a great thing...we are very lucky in this country that we can live in relative peace...if there is an issue here with folk who want to start killing others just because of religion..then my answer is to remove those that are the problem..because one thing is certain..you start unfairly alienating a large group just because of the actions of small % of murderers or nutjobs..you will see an end to that nice peace we have.
I am not saying there weren't a few that supported the Ebdo killings..i'm sure there were...maybe they have p1ssed off to Syria hopefully...Muslims have no tolerance of people poking fun at their religion..but lets not pretend that any other religious person relishes that....i've met a few religious types through the years..and boy do they not like their religion mocked. I think all religion should be mocked..i've no time for it ..but thats just me. You brought up Life Of Brian..fook me there was a massive outcry about that ..many people failed to find that funny..so there is no way that Muslims are going to get polled like they have and some will say they understood the motivation..again i'll say thats not condoning killing people.
What we have to do is make it clear that if they live in a multiculrural society..then religion mocking is part and parcel of it..get used to or it or ignore it. I would imagine all those people polled ignored it.they didn't like it..but ignored it.
If you can find a way to encourage people to laugh at something they don't find funny..then let me know how thats possible.
What makes me laugh a bit here Clive is..i'm not religious in any way..and yet i can see the situation here without tarring all with same brush. I've got no axe to grind..no need to defend anyone or any faith..i'd scrap all religions if i could...arguing over who's god is better than who elses is the area of stupidity to me.
But one thing i have learned is that tolerance is a great thing...we are very lucky in this country that we can live in relative peace...if there is an issue here with folk who want to start killing others just because of religion..then my answer is to remove those that are the problem..because one thing is certain..you start unfairly alienating a large group just because of the actions of small % of murderers or nutjobs..you will see an end to that nice peace we have.
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icebreaker
At the Start
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Then, EC, how about some specific polls carried out with more black-and-white-only options?
How about surveys that have found:
33% of British Muslims believe that killing for religion can be justified.
36% of British Muslims believe that apostates should be killed.
40% of British Muslims want sharia law implemented.
33% of British Muslims support the implementation of a worldwide Caliphate.
24% of British Muslims said the London 7/7 bombings were justified.
EC1
On a break
you like your polls don't you Ice? I wouldn't hang my hat on any of those you list..but if someone chooses to do so..then live in the fear they are produced to provide. We could poll Muslims until the cow comes home and still be no wiser...we might think we know definite answers but the real answer is in reality.
Lets look at the 7/7 one..its out of context and misleading..as are most of these polls..or the headline just don't look as good..look beneath the question
ALMOST a quarter of British Muslims say the 7/7 bombings can be justified because of the Government's support for the war on terror, according to an opinion poll.
Many people in this country..non muslims..also believe the more we bomb in the middle east the more we will get reprisals..thats not the same as saying that 7/7 is right..its an opinion of why it might have been carried out. Shall we also alienate those people too..the non muslim who don't agree with bombing other countries we really shouldn't have done in the past..is that also your view..or is it just muslims that should not hold that view?
I think these polls are headline vehicles to mislead people..it clearly works doesn't it?....but the messages that are being got across out of context are dangerous..and foolish imo.
Lets look at the 7/7 one..its out of context and misleading..as are most of these polls..or the headline just don't look as good..look beneath the question
ALMOST a quarter of British Muslims say the 7/7 bombings can be justified because of the Government's support for the war on terror, according to an opinion poll.
Many people in this country..non muslims..also believe the more we bomb in the middle east the more we will get reprisals..thats not the same as saying that 7/7 is right..its an opinion of why it might have been carried out. Shall we also alienate those people too..the non muslim who don't agree with bombing other countries we really shouldn't have done in the past..is that also your view..or is it just muslims that should not hold that view?
I think these polls are headline vehicles to mislead people..it clearly works doesn't it?....but the messages that are being got across out of context are dangerous..and foolish imo.
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there have been a number of polls and the % is always about the same for support for the exterme element. Why not believe that? What alternative is there
no. Completely wrong. Saying it's "justified" is completely different
as I said I believe that things may swing away from the intolernace within Islam over time and certainly 20 years ago there was substantially more hate preaching and probably support for the killing of novelists (the real start of the exposure of the views) . Assimilation is gradual and this is a great country for acceptance but we cannot be blind to the repulsive aspects of this religion that still exist today
i also think it's extremely insulting to otehr beliefs to bracket them in the same group as the large grouping of islamic fundamentalists. How many more fcking times does it need to be spelt out that there are extreme elements to Islam which are simply not replicated in any scale whatsoever anywhere else
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icebreaker
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That's really lame, EC.
You do seem to be grasping for a justification -- any justification -- to water down the implications of these, frankly scary, statistics.
My take on it, FWIW, and in trepidation of being accused of Islamophobia, is that people such as these who condone willful murder and are against freedom have no place in our society.
You do seem to be grasping for a justification -- any justification -- to water down the implications of these, frankly scary, statistics.
My take on it, FWIW, and in trepidation of being accused of Islamophobia, is that people such as these who condone willful murder and are against freedom have no place in our society.
EC1
On a break
no Ice..what is lame is that you buy the headline and base your opinion of a section of our society on it
the fact is that many non muslims here also think that bombing lands afar will be revisited on us..and if polled the % would be the same ..the fact that the headline is missing the context tells me its a sensationilst piece of nasty devisive cr@p tailored to encourage unfair judgement of Muslims.
i don't need to grasp for anything..i have no time for relgion full stop..but i also have no time for people who want to create massive divides in our country through that sort of rubbish.
your condone is someone elses understanding of one action can create another..you seem to think that we as a country can just go doing what we want and nothing will come back on us
are you saying that all brits who think bombing other countries won't bring reprisals ...need removing from this country..that will be a lot to get rid of
how would you achieve this?
the fact is that many non muslims here also think that bombing lands afar will be revisited on us..and if polled the % would be the same ..the fact that the headline is missing the context tells me its a sensationilst piece of nasty devisive cr@p tailored to encourage unfair judgement of Muslims.
i don't need to grasp for anything..i have no time for relgion full stop..but i also have no time for people who want to create massive divides in our country through that sort of rubbish.
your condone is someone elses understanding of one action can create another..you seem to think that we as a country can just go doing what we want and nothing will come back on us
are you saying that all brits who think bombing other countries won't bring reprisals ...need removing from this country..that will be a lot to get rid of
how would you achieve this?
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i agree
EC1
On a break
well you are coming across like the worst elements of a dying newspaper that barely anyone reads (thankfully)
running around with hands over ears shouting it can't be true is a nonsense.
Whether it's you or not, I just find so much of the lefts constant apologia for the most fascistic far right movement on the earth today partly funny but also more than revealing of the true nature of that constituency
EC1
On a break
Clive
Bearing in mind its not long ago..that you wanted to shoot a politician in the face..if someone bombed your town and then a pollster asked you if you thought it justified to seek revenge...would you say yes or no
Bearing in mind its not long ago..that you wanted to shoot a politician in the face..if someone bombed your town and then a pollster asked you if you thought it justified to seek revenge...would you say yes or no
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sorry?
can you point out when the raf bombed Bradford, tower hamlets and Dewsbury ? Or when the French bombed the addroisments in Paris?
Would appear that I missed that news item .
and perhaps given that by far the greatest number of Muslims killed by bombs have been by other muslims then perhaps they ought to concentrate on "revenge" within the Islamic world?
and now Belgium is on very high alert. Can you point out the extent of the Belgian bombing of these muslims towns?
it is unbelievable,that posters cannot get time lines . The calendar is simple. Rushdie happened before the gulf war. 1988 is before 1993. Look it up. The first attempt to blow up the wtc was in response to what bombings? And the second successful attempt? Kenya? Etc etc
The Islamists would laugh in your face at this. They hang their hat on interventions belatedly to garner support but the motivation is to kill us because we EXIST
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EC1
On a break
a long pointless answer to a very simple question..you should be a politican Clive..was it yes or no?