Juvenile Hurdlers 2014/2015

Bachelors Hall said:
Well, we saw it!



:D As good as this thread is relative to the rest of the internet, it pales in comparison to the sheer magnificence of Bonito du Berlais's performance today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDxdbUl4qAY

If he's aimed towards the Cheltenham Festival then it would be more appropriate that he is aimed at the Champion Hurdle. This performance was unnatural.
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Good performance no doubt, Kotki, but well short of what would be required to win a Champion Hurdle......a race that hasn't been won by a 4yo since WW2!

It was very taking nonetheless, and he's an exciting prospect.:cool:

FWIW, connections are talking about letting him down, and prepping him for the Alain Du Breil next summer.....and they sound fearless about whoever is sent over from the big UK/Irish yards, too. On that basis, a Festival outing of any description, seems unlikely. The plan is to send him novice chasing next season.
 
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I've got a c0ck-eyed way of rating French form that gives me some decent bets..i remember putting one up on here last year that won a decent handicap at early Cheltenham meeting..and using that method and looking at the hurdles races over the same trip as Bonito Du Berlais i get

Arch Duchess OHR type rating 152
Vapalo OHR 130
Daliacelte OHR 130

Comparing the time of each of those races with BDB time ..gives BDB ratings as 160...162...158

The fact that all 3 times point to a similar rating for BDB is good enough for me....and that's without being asked a serious question..160 minimum...another Our Conor..probably even better

i hope he comes here
 
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Impressive enough but Champion Hurdles.
Also not run on anything bar soft or heavy I think.
Hard to knock that performance mind.
 
EC1 said:
more than impressive imo.. CH would be daft.. he only a baby...can't see anything novice wise that we've got that will get near him
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He is anything but a big baby physically, and - to give a bit of perspective - he has had more runs since June, than More Of That has had in his career (and he's won a Stayers Hurdle).

National Hunt horses, especially French-bred, appear to mature much earlier these days. Whether that's down to improvements in training, or something else, is largely immaterial. The effect is that Jumps types are now ready for sterner tests, earlier in their careers. Indeed, when it comes to French-breds, you largely want to strike whilst the iron is hot, as they can often fail to hold their form over more than a couple or three seasons (there are notable exceptions, of course).

You advocated Hurricane Fly swerving the Champion Hurdle in 2011, because you didn't think he was ready either.....or at least that was a part of your overall argument. I think the days of bringing a young horse along gently are pretty-much behind us. Too many are ready too quickly, and there are few races in which they're no longer qualified.
 
The French-bred debate. Doesn't the French programme revolve around the young horses. The boys are men before their men.
 
Grasshopper said:
He is anything but a big baby physically, and - to give a bit of perspective - he has had more runs since June, than More Of That has had in his career (and he's won a Stayers Hurdle).

National Hunt horses, especially French-bred, appear to mature much earlier these days. Whether that's down to improvements in training, or something else, is largely immaterial. The effect is that Jumps types are now ready for sterner tests, earlier in their careers. Indeed, when it comes to French-breds, you largely want to strike whilst the iron is hot, as they can often fail to hold their form over more than a couple or three seasons (there are notable exceptions, of course).

You advocated Hurricane Fly swerving the Champion Hurdle in 2011, because you didn't think he was ready either.....or at least that was a part of your overall argument. I think the days of bringing a young horse along gently are pretty-much behind us. Too many are ready too quickly, and there are few races in which they're no longer qualified.
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i didn't mean physically..i meant he's a baby re being asked to jump hurdles at speed..best do that against ever better oppo gradually ...than give him a shock in the toughest ask ever...that's the whole point of a novice career. Look at Long Run..more miles on the clock than a 10 year old by time he were 5..if he had been trained over here early they might have squoze two or 3 GC's out of him.

Yes i did advocate care with HF..in fact it could be argued if Mullins hadn't run in that first CH..he might just have won 3 with HF on the bounce:)

just imagine..swap that first CH..for 3 on the bounce....just for a bit of patience..and hindsight of course:)

cue Grassy & Granger

wonder who will get there first:D
 
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I wouldn't trade anything for that first Champion Hurdle, EC1. ;)

I'm not advocating throwing BdB into top-class company, merely responding to the suggestion that he's a) immature, and b) that a steady campaign is always best. The admittedly-exceptional More of That proves it can be done with the right horse. :cool:
 
Look out for a horse called Hassle which has joined Henderson's yard from Clive Cox. Ran well at Ascot three times in the Summer 1st 2nd and 3rd.
 
Frankel said:
The French-bred debate. Doesn't the French programme revolve around the young horses. The boys are men before their men.
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Yes - the program is heavily geared towards 3 and 4yo races over both hurdles and fences.

After that you're into conditions events or handicaps/claimers - if the horse happens to be a graded performer then the very best races are all over 3m+ hence the likely non-stayers like Fago, Master Minded etc. are sold to the UK having run in the big 4yo races.
 
Irish Stamp said:
Yes - the program is heavily geared towards 3 and 4yo races over both hurdles and fences.

After that you're into conditions events or handicaps/claimers - if the horse happens to be a graded performer then the very best races are all over 3m+ hence the likely non-stayers like Fago, Master Minded etc. are sold to the UK having run in the big 4yo races.
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Such racing so young the main reason for lack of longevity I imagine.
 
Triumph Hurdle a hell of a lot scarier than the Champion - regardless of the horse's age, if he has the physique to handle it.

IMHO.

Although, it doesn't look like the former is on the agenda anyhow.
 
wilsonl said:
Triumph Hurdle a hell of a lot scarier than the Champion - regardless of the horse's age, if he has the physique to handle it.

IMHO.

Although, it doesn't look like the former is on the agenda anyhow.
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it scares me watching it..so yes its a mentally challenging test..whereas the Champion Hurdle is a ball breaking physical test with yes usually less runners. Neither is really ideal for a young horse..that's young horse to us.,.the French have young as just born by looks of it. I mean young as in experience of passing over hurdles at championship speed over the last two hurdles.

my preferred route with such as this is nurse him through the easier races..get his jumping to match his seriously fast times..then you have a Golden Cygnet..even that one was put up too high too quickly..if they would have just waited until the next season to face Sea Pigeon etc..we would have talked about him like Arkle now..its all about patience with those we will remember in 30 years time..we still remember GC because of the potential..potential pi$$ed down the drain of impatience.
 
Frankel said:
The French-bred debate... The boys are men before their men.
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So are half the women.

True story purely as an aside - a couple of years back I was getting a class of non-French students to write down 10 things they 'knew' about France or the French.
Several of the replies included: French women don't shave. Where on earth they got that from I shudder to think.
 
Frankel said:
Such racing so young the main reason for lack of longevity I imagine.
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There are plenty of 9 and 10yo's racing around Auteuil - it depends what you consider to be longevity?

We have different expectations of flat and national hunt horses and the same should be true of those brought up in France - they school them from an early age so they're all well drilled and generally know their job, unlike some of their British and Irish counterparts who are given a lot more time.

Martin
 
Irish Stamp said:
There are plenty of 9 and 10yo's racing around Auteuil - it depends what you consider to be longevity?

We have different expectations of flat and national hunt horses and the same should be true of those brought up in France - they school them from an early age so they're all well drilled and generally know their job, unlike some of their British and Irish counterparts who are given a lot more time.

Martin
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When I say longevity I mean raiders competing at the top level on these shores. Couple of examples being Master Minded who probably reached his peak at 5/6. Long Run maybe 6/7.
The fact they had run about 10 times or so already in France meant they were already battle hardened before racing here.
 
Frankel said:
When I say longevity I mean raiders competing at the top level on these shores. Couple of examples being Master Minded who probably reached his peak at 5/6. Long Run maybe 6/7.
The fact they had run about 10 times or so already in France meant they were already battle hardened before racing here.
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Neptune Collonges was an exception, he was chasing at three and won the National as an eleven year old.
 
Frankel said:
When I say longevity I mean raiders competing at the top level on these shores. Couple of examples being Master Minded who probably reached his peak at 5/6. Long Run maybe 6/7.
The fact they had run about 10 times or so already in France meant they were already battle hardened before racing here.
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Fair enough though I think we overstate the number of horses who actually race competitively at the highest level over here - I think you're far more likely to have a horse racing at 10 or 11 going the traditional bumper route but at what level is very much dependent on the individual.

I think a lot of the promising French youngsters (that aren't owned by the Papot's or Bryant's of racing) are snapped up fairly early on and with the rest of them it doesn't make sense to sell when the offer is 150-200k and you're contesting 125k chases and 95k handicaps every other week.

One of my favourite horses over there has yet to win in 22 or so starts, he's accumulated 220k in prize money in that time mainly contesting the big handicaps and hopefully he'll have his day in the French Grand National next April :)

Martin
 
Irish Stamp said:
Fair enough though I think we overstate the number of horses who actually race competitively at the highest level over here - I think you're far more likely to have a horse racing at 10 or 11 going the traditional bumper route but at what level is very much dependent on the individual.

I think a lot of the promising French youngsters (that aren't owned by the Papot's or Bryant's of racing) are snapped up fairly early on and with the rest of them it doesn't make sense to sell when the offer is 150-200k and you're contesting 125k chases and 95k handicaps every other week.

One of my favourite horses over there has yet to win in 22 or so starts, he's accumulated 220k in prize money in that time mainly contesting the big handicaps and hopefully he'll have his day in the French Grand National next April :)

Martin
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Fair points.

Well I wish you and him luck in your quest. Sounds like you are due one. :)
 
Frankel said:
Who can forget that National. What a race.
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That race and Crisp's defeat by Red Rum... two National defeats snatched from the jaws of victory for me I shall never forget. So painful at the time and still hurt when I think about them.
 
Desert Orchid said:
That race and Crisp's defeat by Red Rum... two National defeats snatched from the jaws of victory for me I shall never forget. So painful at the time and still hurt when I think about them.
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Well the opposite for me regards Neptune as I was on him. Cheers old boy. Though you had to feel for Sunnyhill as injury probably cost him. That and the extra 80 yards he had to endure which he wouldn't have the year after.
 
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