Kauto Star Dessie equal ? dont make me laugh

J

jumps fan ed06

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Kauto Star wins his third King George what a star (erm no) he is a very good horse but a true star not a chance. Dessie won 4 (bad ride when 2nd in another). He is a better horse than Wayward Lad but for me but will never be a TRUE GIANT as he will never be risked in a top class handicap so we can see his true battling qualities. Kauto has won 2 Tingle Creeks to Dessies 1 however in Dessies day that race was a handicap and no way would Kauto have won 2 giving 2 stone away to his rivals. Also if it was a level weight conest in Dessies day he would have won at least 2. Could you ever see Kauto winning a Whitbread or Irish National? NO me neither so lets not carried away with him being a Dessie or Arkle rival end of.
 
why are handicaps harder to win than Graded races?...are there better horses in handicaps?

Is Sea Bird not much cop as a Derby Winner because he never ran against inferior horses in handicaps?

this must run in a handicap issue has always puzzled me...if handicapping is the bees knees why don't we make the GC and KG handicaps as well so that they mean something?
 
Kauto Star's 2006/2007 Season

Starts off by winning a handicap by 21 lengths giving 9lb to the second.
Next up, steps up to three miles for the first time in a G1 and wins by 17 lengths.
Third race, just two weeks later, drops back to 2m and wins the Tingle Creek.
Three weeks later, back up to 3m to win one of his three King Georges.
Short break then wins his G2 prep for the Gold Cup giving weight away.
Ends the season by winning the Cheltenham Gold Cup over 27f.

Six races over four different distances and six wins. Four Grade Ones and two Grade Twos. Decent season.

what a star (erm no) he is a very good horse but a true star not a chance
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Clearly not... but then neither is he finished yet.
 
Actually I think Kauto could win a Whitbread or an Irish National.

He is not my favourite or anything like that but I think we often expect so much of these horses that we lose sight of what pleasure they give us.

We seem unable to just enjoy the horses we have and not go into deep anal retention trying to figure out which one is better than some other one.

I knew Dessie and agree that Kauto is not (yet) in same league - but I do think he is pretty damn good, certainly a modern great. I would not throw him out of my paddock if he were mine!

I believe he can win a 4th KG and was thrilled to be there to see him win his first and his third.
 
jumps fan ed06 said:
Kauto Star wins his third King George what a star (erm no) he is a very good horse but a true star not a chance. Dessie won 4 (bad ride when 2nd in another). He is a better horse than Wayward Lad but for me but will never be a TRUE GIANT as he will never be risked in a top class handicap so we can see his true battling qualities. Kauto has won 2 Tingle Creeks to Dessies 1 however in Dessies day that race was a handicap and no way would Kauto have won 2 giving 2 stone away to his rivals. Also if it was a level weight conest in Dessies day he would have won at least 2. Could you ever see Kauto winning a Whitbread or Irish National? NO me neither so lets not carried away with him being a Dessie or Arkle rival end of.
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This post is very very funny ;)
 
Why would anyone want to have a go at KS this week.It always bugged me when people had a go at Florida Pearl and Beef or Salmon.Sure all these horses have their flaws but enjoy them when they are around.Comparisons with horses from 20 years ago are irrelevant.
 
Kauto Star is the best horse I've ever seen in action by a distance (well Denman, but he hasn't done what Kauto's done yet). He's won a Gold Cup, Three King George's, Two Tingle Creeks, an Aon, a Betfair, twice Order of Merit Champion, only winner of the Betfair million.

To add to that, I reckon he'd have won the Arkle if he hadn't been injured, and he'd have won the Champion Chase had he not fallen (the race Newmill won-yeh, exactly!!)

Why do people always knock these great horses? Some people have feck all else to do...
 
Simon said:
Kauto Star is the best horse I've ever seen in action by a distance (well Denman, but he hasn't done what Kauto's done yet). He's won a Gold Cup, Three King George's, Two Tingle Creeks, an Aon, a Betfair, twice Order of Merit Champion, only winner of the Betfair million.

To add to that, I reckon he'd have won the Arkle if he hadn't been injured, and he'd have won the Champion Chase had he not fallen (the race Newmill won-yeh, exactly!!)

Why do people always knock these great horses? Some people have feck all else to do...
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Im with you with this simon... do you think if he won tht champion chase mind he would have gone on to over 3miles? i think the fall was a good thing in the end as if he stayed up he would have won no doubt and then stayed at 2miles.
 
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EC1 said:
why are handicaps harder to win than Graded races?...are there better horses in handicaps?

Is Sea Bird not much cop as a Derby Winner because he never ran against inferior horses in handicaps?

this must run in a handicap issue has always puzzled me...if handicapping is the bees knees why don't we make the GC and KG handicaps as well so that they mean something?
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Its because of handicaps that Arkle and Flyingbolt were so overrated by Timeform. Phil Bull hated the jumps and I think he delegated the ratings of them to the tea boy.
 
firstpastthepost said:
Im with you with this simon... do you think if he won tht champion chase mind he would have gone on to over 3miles? i think the fall was a good thing in the end as if he stayed up he would have won no doubt and then stayed at 2miles.
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I'm not sure, but it's an interesting thought. What would then have happened when Masterminded came along...would the Clive Smith pair do battle...who would win? Interesting, very interesting, but all these things we'll never know.

I'm not sure how the fall made Nicholls think "oh, I'll step him up in trip", but I don't know.

Why did he decide to step him up?
 
Dessie better than Kauto - you having a laugh?

Kauto´s been doing it against the best since he was 4, Dessie took years to get even remotely close to winning. Take a look at his early form and compare the two. No contest.

He did a good job of it at 2m though Granger - better at both 2m and 3m than Dessie (who as good as he was got a cult following mainly due to his colour).
 
I don't think that your statement about Desert Orchid's level over 3m trips can be substaniated on any level, Martin.

Dessie may have had a cult following because of his colour, but he also had the evidence in the form-book to back-up the hysteria that surrounded him. To suggest it's otherwise is disengenuous.
 
I´m not saying that Dessie wasn´t a great horse just that IMO Kauto´s performances in his three King George´s and his Gold Cup where better than Dessie´s and IMO against better quality horses too.
 
they do share a similarity in that both really loved Kempton and that the GC wasn't a race they seemed to relish...I would rate KS's GC win higher than DO's..purely from what they beat...but Dessie was so brave when winning his GC..I couldn't knock him

i doubt there is much between them..not enough to measure anyway
 
I don't like comparing horses that are so different and from totally different times but it is human to do so. When a horse is as famous as these two it starts out with what they do on the track and they must be consistent, but it is more than their racing performances that make the public warm to them and the press hanker to write about and photograph them.

Even his trainer is fond of saying that Desert Orchid was backward. He was an old fashioned chaser. Dessie was so boisterous and jumped like a stag, never knew when he was beaten, was fearless. He was an interesting, larger than life character who did things his own way, in his own time. And, even when beaten, had a brilliance and magic shining through. Time never diminished him, and I don't think it ever will. Even as an old horse he still had such presence. When he was at David Eslworth's he would push a horse off the gallop if it dared to get in front of him, (including Barnbrook Again) and he held his tail up whenever an entire was brought near him. He was never that easy to handle and as everyone knows continued to pull out the arms of anyone who rode him well into his 20's. He demanded attention and loved the cameras.

You could not help but notice him, and if you stop people in the street today and ask them to name a great racehorse his name will not be far from their lips. Even if you did not like him (and there were many who did not due to all the hype he recieved) you have to admit he did a hell of a lot for racing. He was British bred too, which against the French, Irish dominance is something to be very proud of. His story is one of those classics, horse in the field type of stuff. When he died I dragged out the old videos and watched his races again and was moved to shouting.

Kauto is a very different horse, typically French bred, and has all the forward connotations you'd expect of one. He too is a character, is not the best looking horse you'd find, but has a lot of presence, appears fearless, even with his mistakes and his ability to usually find a leg. There is the relationship between him and Ruby. He is still developing and his story is being written. Being a much earlier type than Dessie I would not expect him to go on as long as Dessie did unless handled more gently so you cannot blame them for deciding to give him less assignments now.

I just enjoy them both and am grateful for their presence. I don't think you have to take one horse down to enjoy the other.
 
No point trying to compare horses of different generations - we try to compare those of the SAME generation every day and get it wrong!
 
I find talk that dessies success was down to his colour racist frankly....

It did take DO a while to hit top gear but on the other hand, he stopped around for a while too.

Rather than contrast the two horses, i like to think about their similarities. Both had a slightly flashy confident demeanor and both like/liked Kempton best of all. Also, they both had a rare versatility.

Lucky enough to see both plenty of times now and both are great chasers
 
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