Kauto Star

I am genuinely puzzled as to why people are so reluctant to call Kauto Star a great horse.

Did he do something really bad in a former life or something?

I was never a big fan of the horse as he was emerging through the ranks, but the evidence of the Betfair was very hard to dispute. And he then followed that with the Tingle Creek, the KG and the Gold Cup.

Imagine if Darkness had put together such a run. :what:
 
I'm not disputing that he's very good - a superstar, in my eyes, has to sustain a run for longer than one season. How can a horse be labelled a superstar after one season? Arkle - now there's a superstar.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Nov 13 2007, 09:51 PM
I'm not disputing that he's very good - a superstar, in my eyes, has to sustain a run for longer than one season. How can a horse be labelled a superstar after one season? Arkle - now there's a superstar.
Click to expand...
Rubbish ~ he only won the one King George. :P
 
A funny thing happened to me on the forum.

Shadow Leader found it worth commenting with no less that TWO exclamation marks and an 'of course, i forget' that anyone who doesnt agree with ME must be wrong.

Altogether now... :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
 
Serious point. This is merely a matter of semantics (and we've seen some antics on here recently!). Shadow Leader equates the word "Superstar" with the word "Legend" whereas the rest of us equate it with "exceptional talent". Kauto Star has already showed that he is one of the most talented chasers we have seen in thirty years. What he hasn't done is work his way into racing's pantheon of greatness. Said pantheon is ironically full of horses with inferior timeform ratings. Damn the unbelievers of Halifax!
 
Kauto Star appears to be the best 3 mile chaser since Desert Orchid, no doubt the coming season will tell us more.

His defeat the other day was an honourable one, despite his running in an uncharacteristically lazy fashion for much of the race.
 
kauto star did more in one year last year than any horse I can remember. Rightly considered a superstar regardless what he does this year. Amazing that he could conceivably win his third Tingle Creek before turning 8. I can remember those with Best Mate blind spot saying that it was virtually impossible to win the King George and the Gold Cup in the same year. By any reasonable standard KS is a superstar.
 
For what its worth, and I realise that my own ratings are proof of little more than the fact my calculator works. I give Denman a serious shout at beating Kauto.

I hold 13 years of ratings for the festival, and although the methodology might be flawed or of little consequence, it enables me to draw up a rank order of historical performances and place the winners in a kind of context. 2007 was a bit of funny festival with a number of slow performances, most notably the Supreme, Champion Hurdle and Gold Cup all recorded the slowest renewal for the period I hold records for. The SAC by contrast recorded the fastest.

Not only did Denman set a new high water mark for that race, he did so very decisively. Until 2007, only Moscow Flyers Arkle win had a bigger margin of superiority between his triumph and the rating of the next nearest winner. As it happens MWDS also recorded a very fast time, and is in fact the second fastest Arkle winner I hold a record for, so Denmans margin of superiority is slightly higher than Moscow Flyers now courteousy of MWDS.

Now as I said this doesn't constitute proof of anything, but after so long keeping records you learn to recognise a significant one when it leaps off the page. Both the novice chasers put up seriously impressive figures, and Denman took the SAC ratings into a whole new area, which has only been previously matched by Moscow at 2 miles. With this as the context I'm prepared to say that Denman will win :D
 
Is it not Kauto Star beat nothing but handicappers last seaosn however and is yet to face a serious test from a horse that was of graded calibre over hurdles and fences, as he will face this season from Denman.

Taking nothing away from his acheivements, he has beaten Ollie Magern, L'Ami, Armaturk, State Of Play, (a non staying Monets Garden), (a cant jump Racing Demon) and a dual handicap winner Exotic Dancer with a bloody exposed Monkerhostin (now needs 6m) about as close to him as Ollie beat him him at Wetherby.

I'm not convinced there was a serious chaser around last season for him to tackle and I wouldn't be convinced he could get anywhere near Denman, My Way De Solzen or Star De Mohaison.

Had he been born in the 90s against Imperial Call, Jodami, One Man, Dorans Pride, Florida Pearl and co, I think he wouldn't have had a sniff at a Gold Cup.

For me he rates one of the best lays in history in the Betfair Chase and in the Ante Post markets at Kempton and Cheltenham.

I personally think he's had his year and will be firmly eclipsed this time round with a better calibre of chaser around.

My money is on a Denman rout this season although I cant wait for Star De Mohaison to return this year, don't think we have seena nwhere near his full potential yet.
 
Yeah, handicappers like the 10-time Grade 1 winner Beef Or Salmon, the Champion chaser Voy Por Ustedes, and the 177-rated (by the RP) Exotic Dancer, who won two Grade 2 races by a combined 31 lengths and couldn't win a Grade 1 only because Kauto kept turning up.
 
Originally posted by chrisbeekracing@Nov 14 2007, 06:33 AM
Is it not Kauto Star beat nothing but handicappers last seaosn however and is yet to face a serious test from a horse that was of graded calibre over hurdles and fences, as he will face this season from Denman.

Taking nothing away from his acheivements, he has beaten Ollie Magern, L'Ami, Armaturk, State Of Play, (a non staying Monets Garden), (a cant jump Racing Demon) and a dual handicap winner Exotic Dancer with a bloody exposed Monkerhostin (now needs 6m) about as close to him as Ollie beat him him at Wetherby.

I'm not convinced there was a serious chaser around last season for him to tackle and I wouldn't be convinced he could get anywhere near Denman, My Way De Solzen or Star De Mohaison.

Had he been born in the 90s against Imperial Call, Jodami, One Man, Dorans Pride, Florida Pearl and co, I think he wouldn't have had a sniff at a Gold Cup.

For me he rates one of the best lays in history in the Betfair Chase and in the Ante Post markets at Kempton and Cheltenham.

I personally think he's had his year and will be firmly eclipsed this time round with a better calibre of chaser around.

My money is on a Denman rout this season although I cant wait for Star De Mohaison to return this year, don't think we have seena nwhere near his full potential yet.
Click to expand...
With respect Chris, I havent read a post that I disagree more with since the great purges of early 07.

How a horse can toy with an Arkle and Champion Chase winner over 2m, and still win a Gold Cup comfortably, and yet not be acclaimed as great is astounding me.

Kauto Star beat a better field than Best Mate ever did for instance. In fact, wasnt one of Best Mate's achievements being able to win the King George and the Gold Cup in the same season. Supposedly impossible at the time, acorrding to some.

I would worry if last year's campaign and his french brededness (yes that is what I said) means KS wont be as good this year, and wouldnt back him in the Betfair chase, but relegating last season's achievements are non-sensical in my view.
 
Going back a bit further was it not his first trainer Guilliame Macaire who called Kauto 'the extra terrestrial' because he was so much better than anything else they had seen?

I agree that his French breeding and early training may catch up with him as it does with some of them, but not all of them, ie Edredon Bleu went on forever.

As said earlier, or tried to say anyway, my point about Best Mate was that despite looking superior and many believing him to be so he did not beat outstanding horses in his Gold Cups, or his King George. Exotic Dancer, Voy Por Ustedes and Monet's in my opinion are better horses than Sir Rembrandt, Commanche Court and Harbour Pilot.

About the King George - Gold Cup double being impossible before Best Mate did it, this was one of the reasons that I did not think he was fabulously outstanding, it had been done in 1999, how soon people forget! By See More Business who was 3rd at the age of 12 in Best Mate's first Gold Cup.

Having said all of this Best Mate was magical and brought great pleasure to his connections and the public. He was good for racing. And so is Kauto Star. Whatever he does this season will be a bonus, as they say. I think it is obvious that he is outstanding. If he has another season anywhere near like last year then I will start to think he is as good as Desert Orchid was.

If he has longeity he should be able to build on his talents from the experiences he had last year. He may even improve his jumping technique.

Let's hope he stays sound, keeps his enthusiasm and can carry on thrilling people. :clap:

If he, Denman and My Way de Solzen arrive at the Gold Cup what a race that will be to savour.
 
Do you think when Betfair came up with the idea of the "million" for any horse winning the three legs, they expected it to be won so quickly? Do you think any other horse is likely to repeat the feat anytime in say.....the next ten to twelve years? Answer to both is probably not. Therefore, KS is indeed a superstar. He got beat at Liverpool, but lets face it, that was only a cobwebs blowing exercise to get him ready for the Betfair.
 
Originally posted by Garney@Nov 13 2007, 09:27 PM
I can remember those with Best Mate blind spot saying that it was virtually impossible to win the King George and the Gold Cup in the same year.
Click to expand...
Garney, I think it's unworthy for someone with your knowledge to use a Kauto Star thread for a cheap shot at Best Mate - not once but twice. I don't recall anyone measuring BM's 'greatness' by his ability to win the KG and GC in the same season. It was only the 3 successive Gold Cups that put his mark on history. I suspect that your view is coloured by the fact that neither Kicking King nor War Of Attrition were sound enough to even defend their titles. I remember you being particularly sweet on KK before he injured himself.

Back to the subject, if KS stays sound he continues to win. Denman is just a galloper without the pace to beat KS. I'm also not convinced that he's a battler as he's never really had to fight other than the day he lost. MWDS may be something special but he'll have to be.
 
Back
Top