Kauto Star

Archie wants to have a go....and raising the green eyed specs again.
Wouldnt it be more in line to decry Kauto Star's performances in the light of WOA or KK's absence?? So you suspect wrong. I was particularly sweet on KK, and if those posts should they be found said that I was backing KK as, I though BM was gone at the game. And some forumites can attest that the two outsiders that I put up were WOA (i know one forumite took 40s) and Hedgehunter. But that is by the by.

To bore on about Best Mate.

Best Mate's achievement in winning three gold cups is astounding. In one of those three races he looked the superstar that his fans made him out to be. One former moderator belived him to the third best chaser in history. When the form of his 1l win over Marlborogugh was questioned (marlborough losing more than a length with a blunder at th last) it was suggested that it was impossible to win a KG/GC in the same year and the achievement should be respected. When the SMB example was called up, it was devalued because the KG was won after the GC. It was laughed at when Florida Pearl was voted best staying chaser the year he beat BM in the King George, who obviously lost because of McCoy. I was laughed at by many, maybe you were one of them Archie when I suggested that a race over 2m4f between the then Champion CHaser Moscow Flyer and Best Mate would be one to savour.

Best Mate's achievement was outstanding. I have it at a similar level to L'Escargot. who won back to back gold cups and a grand national and supreme novices to boot. And but for Red Rum would have won a second national. Two great horses. Without question.

I had my doubts initially about Kauto Star (as I do now) but last year he would have beaten any 3m of the past 25 years. With Desert Orchid proving the toughest opponent. Desert Orhcid was also never as far clear of the 2m division as KS was in his prime. In fact, a race with Moscow Flyer at his best over 2m4f would have me wetting myself. Its a shame he wasnt in that Tingle Creek.

Archie, dont suppose you feel in any way foolish following your statement about this time last year that Galileo and I should take off our green tinted specs about Detroit City. Probably not. But just as then, you are wrong in what you are suggesting now.
 
Originally posted by Garney@Nov 13 2007, 09:27 PM
Amazing that he could conceivably win his third Tingle Creek before turning 8.
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Not like we've never seen that done before..... :brows:

What I would really like to see is him run in the Gold Cup AND Champion Chase at Cheltenham.

Now that would be legendary. Never going to happen though.
 
Originally posted by Galileo@Nov 14 2007, 10:14 AM
That does not take anything away from what he achieved last year Chris?
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No as Ive previously stated what he achieved last season was something unreal, but he achieved it beating nothing but handicappers. He is no Superstar or Legend he's just a very good horse.

If he does it all again this year he has earnt his right. But you cant judge a horse on one season.

If thats the case Rooster Booster and Make A Stand must be legends or superstars in the hurdling ranks, however they were just very good and wouldnt be in my list of top 5 Hurdlers/
 
Name me one proven Grade 1 top class winner in what you would call a competitve race he has beaten then?

Beef Or Salmon or any other overtaed Irish Yak doesn't count.
 
They do yak racing here now? Brilliant, my birthday present of "Yaks in Training 2007" will be some use now :)

The most impressive performance Kauto gave last season was in the Tingle Creek IMO. Slamming the future Champion Chase winner like that (who IMO will probably win it again this year) then going on to dominate the staying division has only ever been done by Desert Orchid in my memory.
 
Voy por Ustedes. Brilliant.

I think he was probably unbeatable in the Betfair Chase. I just worry that those two performances (hayock and the tingle creek) were him at his peak and that is has been slightly downhill since. RPR wouldnt agree. That is my fear for this year.
 
for me Kauto Star had the ability but had those problems which held him back. last season was an outburst of his ability. to be hailed a champion in ym book, he would need to repeat some of his victories of last season. most likely would be king george gold cup, but if he could prove as versatile again with a tingle creek & gold cup then he would still go down as a champion. lets face it he picked up the sword laid down by best mate, the true test if he is to be a champion or not will be answered at the end of this season. possibly end of 20009 season.
 
I think he was probably unbeatable in the Betfair Chase. I just worry that those two performances (hayock and the tingle creek) were him at his peak and that is has been slightly downhill since. RPR wouldnt agree. That is my fear for this year.
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Definitely agree with that. Goes to show though, Racing Post have him running 9lbs below his best in the Gold Cup - and he still won it without ever really looking like he would do anything else.
 
Originally posted by chrisbeekracing@Nov 14 2007, 07:33 AM
I wouldn't be convinced he could get anywhere near Denman, My Way De Solzen or Star De Mohaison.
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Possibly the most ridiculous comment I have ever read. Come on Chris, don't take the mickey :P
 
For me, Denman, My Way De Solzen and Star De Mohaison all still have to prove they're good enough to beat Exotic Dancer, let alone Kauto.
 
FFS Garney! I agree with what you say about KS. I just think it unworthy to back up the argument by bringing up Best Mate particularly in an incorrect context.

For what it's worth, I was never a big Best Mate fan in absolute terms and only ever backed him once in a straight win bet (for the KG as it happens) and the achievement was in getting back to Cheltenham 3 years on the trot in shape to win. Again, for what it's worth, I think that Kicking King probably showed better form to win his GC than Best Mate did (or had to) to win any of his but that's not really the point. When you were really touting KK as value to win a second GC I was certainly saying that, given the record of previous winners other than Best Mate for actually turning up to defend, I couldn't see any value in taking 3/1 (I think) at around this time of year. Unfortunately for those that did their dough, I was right that time at least. That's the only thing I have against KS this season and I similarly wouldn't back him this far out at the current price.

As to your other crack about Detroit City, I honestly can't recall accusing you in particular of using green-tinted specs but I did feel at the time that the view of the actual DC form with Hardy Eustace was coloured. The other stats were against DC for the Champion Hurdle and I certainly didn't back him. Likewise I'm not interested in Katchit this season.
 
Fair enough Archie, you say out of context, but I was responding to Chris's post saying that KS would be beaten when he met a chaser of any calibre, and was disagreeing that he was an actual superstar.

Best Mate is regarded as a superstar by many, and possibly all, of racing's supporters. They wouldnt be wrong in thinking that. The point is that I would think that KS is a much better horse, and deserves his position ahead of Best Mate. I was using him as the standard of superstardom. I dont think it is out of context and it has nothing do with with my support of Kicking King. How would that make any sense to anyone thinking rationally.

Henrietta's training achievement of getting Best Mate to three Gold Cups is about as good as anything that I have witnessed.

I did say that the main thing likely to stop Kicking King in his Gold Cup repeat bid was injury, and it did get him. In the end, I wasnt expecting the performance from WOA that he produced on the day, mainly because I'm not a huge fan of the trainer, and I do think Kicking King would have had to be at his very best to win. KKs two runs before the King George were lacklustre - in the same way the War Of Attrition's were after winning his Gold Cups. You would worry about KS this year following that pattern. When horses repeat these peformances year in year out, it is endearing, but doing it for one year is enough to be called great IMO.

So the Detoit City form wasnt coloured after all, and maybe the two-feet-in support that many had of the 5yo after the greatwood and Bula was in fact coloured by a british need to break an irish monopoly on the race. Afsoun is the only placed horse since Rooster Booster.

See, the term overrated Irish yak was used earlier in this post. You would think that the idea that Irish punters who are worth their salt still cant equate form across the Irish sea is dead, but seemingly its not. And I cannot see how KK or WOA has anything to do with my thoughts on Best Mate or Kauto Star.
 
Originally posted by rorydelargy+Nov 14 2007, 01:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rorydelargy @ Nov 14 2007, 01:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-chrisbeekracing@Nov 14 2007, 07:33 AM
I wouldn't be convinced he could get anywhere near Denman, My Way De Solzen or Star De Mohaison.
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Possibly the most ridiculous comment I have ever read. Come on Chris, don't take the mickey :P [/b][/quote]
Being serious . I seriously think Denman is a better horse and still don't think we've seen the best of SDM yet.

I'm also more than happy to lay Kauto NTO, and actually lay hiom not just say I will.

I think he is a good prospect for British racing but i feel the media overacted to him because he had very little beat last season.
 
I have no problem with thinking Denman is very good or rating My Way De Solzen highly or with expecting more improvement from Star De Mohaison, or for that matter with believing Kauto Star will be overbet and wanting to lay him. All of these are perfectly valid views. What is ridiculous is saying that you doubt whether Kauto Star could get near them. It absolutely flies in the face of the hard evidence we have already seen. It's also ridiculous to downgrade Exotic Dancer to "just a handicapper" status just because he happened to win two top handicaps last season. He also impressively won two Grade 2 chases as well as chasing home Kauto Star in the big ones.
 
Okay Exotic Dancer is probably a solid grade 3 horse, but I think it should be noted the grade 2 he won at Aintree was very weak and his opposition was limited.

By his chasing home Kauto Star strengthens my opinion that there wasn't all that much in behind.

I just think with the main protagonists not injured this year, Kauto will have to prove himself against these horses who were high class novices and give real hope for a cracking Gold Cup.

Kauto sort of came from a champion chase prospect if he stands up to top dog last year and I believe his supremecy has alot to do with the lack of opposition rather than one horses "freak" ability. At the end of the day connections didn't expect his rise to stardom until he started rising and at the start of the season Star De Mohaison was the yards big Gold Cup hope.

Im not trying to knock the horse I'm personally just not convinced he is as good as everyone makes him out to be. Im not one of these who will say told you so if he comes a well beat 4th or 5th in the Gold Cup and I will be first to say I was wrong if he slushes up in every race this season bar one.

I just think for a horse to be labelled a superstar or a legend or even unbeatable then he shouldn't earn that status until he has beaten the best rivals around. That he is yet to do. He hasn't met the last 2 Sun Alliance Chase winners, nor has he met an Arkle winner who stays 3m and oozes class. More to the point regardless of whether Exotic Dancer won a Grade 2 at Aintree he was still hopelessly last at Aintree this season and prior to Cheltenham he had won a weak Pilar Chase and chased home KS in a King George were 2 of the main players had logical excuses. He had unfortunately to say only won handicaps and I still maintain Exotic Dancer or Kauto Star wouldnt have been placed in a Gold Cup in the late 90s. I do think KS is better than Best Mate but you take your hat off to Mrs Knight for her training of the horse to win 3 Gold Cups in what were questionably weak renewals.
 
Okay Exotic Dancer is probably a solid grade 3 horse
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Despite having won two Grade 2s by 18 and 13 lengths and been second in the King George and Gold Cup? Your definition of a "Grade 3" horse needs tweaking.

but I think it should be noted the grade 2 he won at Aintree was very weak and his opposition was limited.
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Hence he cantered all over them and won by 13 lengths eased down.

At the end of the day connections didn't expect his rise to stardom until he started rising and at the start of the season Star De Mohaison was the yards big Gold Cup hope.
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I seem to remember a thread on here the season before last where we were arguing whether Nicholls was hyping him by calling him the best he'd had.
 
KS has beaten arkle winner Voy Por Ustedes over that rival's prefered distance.

I cant see much logic to your argument Chris.

Denman, MWDS and SDM to are top class animals, and may beat KS this year. Whether they would have done so last year is really up to ratings expects and each of our own opinion.
 
Originally posted by Gareth Flynn@Nov 14 2007, 03:19 PM


At the end of the day connections didn't expect his rise to stardom until he started rising and at the start of the season Star De Mohaison was the yards big Gold Cup hope.
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I seem to remember a thread on here the season before last where we were arguing whether Nicholls was hyping him by calling him the best he'd had.
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He`s only 2lbs clear on Timeform ratings over the best of Nicholls other animals so it did appear a bit excessive at the time.
 
I agree - at the time. He's the best now, but like you say Azertyuiop at his best would give him a hell of a race over 2 miles. The point is that Nicholls was calling Kauto that a long time ago, not just after Aintree or Haydock last season like Chris inferred.
 
I hope MWDS or Denman can stretch him like Azerty and Well Chief stretched Moscow. That way we`ll see his true worth, because if Nicholls knew he was the best he`d trained that long ago the chances are he`s better than 184.
 
chrisbeekracing[/i]@Nov 14 2007 said:
Only because they weren't born! I can only imagine that you blurted out "late nineties" in your head without thinking because I can't believe for a second that you rate Kauto Star inferior to Rough Quest, Couldn't Be Better, Doran's Pride, Barton Bank, Go Ballistic, Cool Dawn or Strong Promise. I've left out a couple of winners (and Florida Pearl) so as not to confuse the argument!

"I do think KS is better than Best Mate."

Which makes Best Mate inferior to the horses he beat when winning the GC by the same logic.
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