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Lockinge Stakes

It was a Group One in my opinion, Paco Boy is a group one horse, albeit not a Group One miler. Alexandros has acquitted himself very well at the top level and Virtual is clearly up to this class, if only on soft ground. Just because the horses that finished in the frame like soft ground, doesn't detract from it being a decent group one.

Gladiatorus will make a mockery of the mile division this year.
 
There are a lot of things to like about his prospects in all of the big races. His connections aren't one of them.
 
Headstrong said:
WTF Luke? - charming! It annoys me when a horse is done in a photo just because it's head is rising when it's chest and the jockey are clearly in front, and its hoof goes over in front. You see it quite often. Just an opinion, no need to be effing rude!
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Call me old fashioned but I honestly believe that the horse in front at the winning line should be called the winner.
 
From Sporting Life:

Richard Hannon is convinced that Paco Boy stays a mile, despite his eclipse in the Lockinge Stakes at Newbury on Saturday.
Sent off the 11-8 favourite for the first Group One of the season for older horses, he could trail home only fourth behind Virtual.
However, Hannon believes the rain-softened ground was all against him and has his sights firmly set on the Queen Anne at Royal Ascot next month.
"It was a shame that the rain came as it turned the ground soft, and, while our horse enjoys a bit of cut, it made the race a stamina test over the mile, which, as everyone knows, is Paco Boy's maximum distance," said Hannon.
"In contrast, it suited Virtual, who had finished well behind us in the bet365 Mile last month - he is a 10-furlong horse who is heading for the Eclipse, so it was always going to play to his strengths.
"However, Paco Boy was not beaten far and in the circumstances, I am more than happy.
"With luck we will get good ground at Royal Ascot, and all roads still lead to the Queen Anne Stakes.
"He gets a mile no problem, whatever they say, and all we want at Ascot is a decent surface," he told his official website.
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:confused:
 
Idiots, absolute idiots. Why don't they play to his strengths? He'd be a right bet in the July Cup and they should make that the next major target.
 
think PB will flatten out even on faster ground, they are trying to convince themselves that he stays when he doesn't against true milers..to be fair he hasn't run against a proper G1 miler yet and he has still got beat.
 
What I find odd is Hannon just suggesting he did not get the trip on very soft ground whilst Hughes said he was never going to win at any distance :blink:
 
If it is soft at Ascot as it was at Newbury yesterday or Longchamp today then I don't think it will matter what you oppose him with. He's not getting home.
 
Gamla Stan said:
It was a Group One in my opinion, Paco Boy is a group one horse, albeit not a Group One miler. Alexandros has acquitted himself very well at the top level and Virtual is clearly up to this class
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I'm not totally convinced (yet) myself. Virtual clearly progrossed a good deal throughout the course of last year and has evidently sustained that progress through the winter, but nothing he had achieved before Saturday has been anywhere near Group 1 class. The same goes for the Godolphin horse, though admittedly the one piece of form that might give him Group 1 claims (the Dubai Duty Free) is one I'm not entirely sure what to make of tbh.

The proximity of Twice Over (even on soft ground) over a mile gives me a good indication that this is far from top-class form.
 
The Duty Free was top class, he beat plenty of Group One performers and it's officially rated as the best performance on turf this year.
 
Gamla Stan said:
The Duty Free was top class, he beat plenty of Group One performers and it's officially rated as the best performance on turf this year.
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Like the style of Gladiatorus's form all you like but (as ever) there are serious serious holes in the Dubai form.

If you look at the form, Alexandros and Virtual have pretty much run to the pound of form they showed last year in a listed contest at Newmarket.
 
Really? Lets look at some of the field we haven't mentioned on here...

Gladiatorus - 2nd in Group One at backend of 2008, Huge margin winner of Group 2 on Super Thursday.

Presvis - Subsequent impressive winner of Group One in Hong Kong, beaten a head in another Group One in Singapore this morning.

Niconero - Winner of five Group Ones.

Bankable - Beaten a head by Eagle Mountain and a length by Raven's Pass last year, and 3L by subsequent Group One winner Virtual. :p

Archipenko - Group One winner.

Vodka - Won 4 Group Ones.

I could go one, the last 2 in the field were winners of Group Ones in the Uk and France last year. There seems to be a growing consensus on here that if a Group One isn't run at Ascot, Newmarket, Longchamp or the Curragh then it isn't up to scratch. You can knock it all you like but the Duty Free had multiple Group One performers in it and Gladiatorus pummelled them. There are plenty of lines of form through the runners in the field to suggest that the Lockinge was a Group One. I can't help thinking that if Ballydoyle had been running one yesterday, we wouldn't be having this debate.
 
Agreed. I had a sneaky score on him for Newbury awhile back just in case he was declared. Like the Lockinge the boys in blue have a great record in the Queen Anne and if he turns up he should be a shirt priced favourite.
 
Gamla Stan said:
Really? Lets look at some of the field we haven't mentioned on here...

Gladiatorus - 2nd in Group One at backend of 2008, Huge margin winner of Group 2 on Super Thursday.

Presvis - Subsequent impressive winner of Group One in Hong Kong, beaten a head in another Group One in Singapore this morning.

Niconero - Winner of five Group Ones.

Bankable - Beaten a head by Eagle Mountain and a length by Raven's Pass last year, and 3L by subsequent Group One winner Virtual. :p

Archipenko - Group One winner.

Vodka - Won 4 Group Ones.

I could go one, the last 2 in the field were winners of Group Ones in the Uk and France last year. There seems to be a growing consensus on here that if a Group One isn't run at Ascot, Newmarket, Longchamp or the Curragh then it isn't up to scratch. You can knock it all you like but the Duty Free had multiple Group One performers in it and Gladiatorus pummelled them. There are plenty of lines of form through the runners in the field to suggest that the Lockinge was a Group One. I can't help thinking that if Ballydoyle had been running one yesterday, we wouldn't be having this debate.
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Bankable
Bankable beat Eagle Mountain over a mile on his comeback run from injury. Bankable ran Ravens Pass to length in a small field with Ravens Pass virtually having to making his own running. Came into the Duty Free off a handicap win ( a narrow one).

Presvis
Was beaten in TWO handicaps last year off 78 and 87 and was generally a handicapper in England last year. Goes abroad and suddenly becomes a Group 1 animal. Lets see how he gets on back here.

Niconero
I would be interested to know your grasp on Australian mile form because I sure as hell dont.

Archipenko
Good animal, but serious doubts about the DeKock horses on the night with many disappointing.

Creachadoir and Lady Marian shouldn't even be mentioned given neither have been seen since and have clearly had their problems. Indeed it was Creachadoir's first run back since serious injury.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with suggesting European turf Group 1s at Longchamp, The Curragh, Ascot, Newmarket etc are the true test of a turf race horse much in the same way a dirt Champion cannot be called one until he has taken on the best in America. The European milers and stayers are the best bred animals in world and are the highest rated each year in the International Classifications.

Virtual and Alexandros took each other on in Newmarket at the end of last season, on good to soft ground over a straight mile. Virtual beat Alexandros on that occasion by 3/4 length....it was a listed event. Now we are lead to believe that with a nose between them at Newbury and with a well exposed ten furlong horse on their tails that some how they are genuine Group 1 horses? I think not.

Gladiatorus might well win the Queen Anne, it looks a horrible race this year, but I will be interested to see how he gets on against the three year olds.
 
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Presvis
Was beaten in TWO handicaps last year off 78 and 87 and was generally a handicapper in England last year. Goes abroad and suddenly becomes a Group 1 animal. Lets see how he gets on back here.

Bringing up those handicap runs is about as relevant in the context of this argument as, I dunno, comparing Brawn GP to their Honda predecessors last season. He also easily won a handicap off 112 in Dubai and has improved since.

I'd be really interested to see what people think constitutes a "Group 1" horse, because on this forum sometimes I think horses have to run at certain tracks in certain races for certain trainers to be considered one.
 
Galileo said:
Niconero
I would be interested to know your grasp on Australian mile form because I sure as hell dont.
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Not great but Haradasun had a lesser record in Australia and won the Queen Anne well.

Agree with JDCF about Presvis, it's exactly the same as those who called Notnowcato a handicapper when he had won 5 group races. He's just a very progressive horse.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
How many Group 1 speed ratings did you hold for Notnowcato?
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How many truly run races did he run in? His Eclipse was a Group 1 time, although I will concede that Ryan Moore won that race.

I didn't like the horse at all but you can't deny he was a bloody good horse.
 
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