Lockinge Stakes

You don't think there was a link between the lack of truly run races he ran in and the amount of success he had?
 
Gamla Stan said:
Agree with JDCF about Presvis, it's exactly the same as those who called Notnowcato a handicapper when he had won 5 group races. He's just a very progressive horse.
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I think horses that have run in handicaps are seen to have to prove themselves more than animals who have always run in conditions events. There was a sense with Notnowcato that he was only winning Group 1s when his opponents ran below form. Whereas a horse like Ramonti who had a similar level of ability was never questioned. Mainly because he was winning a fistful of the things in a really bad year.
 
Arguably yes, but he hardly ever disgraced himself. He won three Group 1s, I was simply using him as an example as it's ridiculous to suggest that a horse isn't a Group One horse because they got beat in handicaps off marks in the 90s.
 
The Newmarket form of last year suggests both Alexandros and Virtual (over a mile) are now Group 3 or Group 2 horses at best. Remarkable improvement (at the same time and at the same level) otherwise.
 
I think Virtual probably only is Group 2/3, on quick ground but on soft ground he's at the top level, he has also clearly improved from 3 to 4.
 
For the record, I think Pipedreamer (an ex handicapper) would have been a comfortable winner of this if he had ran in it...though soft ground would have been a worry. A bizarrely campaigned horse who should be running over a mile and not 10 furlongs.
 
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Well either way, what looked uninspiring on paper on Saturday morning provided a good race and some healthy debate.
 
Galileo said:
For the record, I think Pipedreamer (an ex handicapper) would have been a comfortable winner of this if he had ran in it...though soft ground would have been a worry. A bizarrely campaigned horse who should be running over a mile and not 10 furlongs.
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Pah, beaten off a mark of 93 once. :p Agree wholeheartedly though.

Tazeez is going to go the same way as him I suspect (can forget todays effort in France though, hated the ground).
 
Gamla Stan said:
Pah, beaten off a mark of 93 once. :p Agree wholeheartedly though.

Tazeez is going to go the same way as him I suspect (can forget todays effort in France though, hated the ground).
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93 indeed...

My whole point about Gladiatorus is that he has plenty to prove. We have seen horses impress in Dubai (not just Godolphin horses) but get found out against the very best Europe has to offer. Given the events of the weekend I think he would be a fair enough favourite for Ascot (though I would oppose him if Pipedreamer turned up) as much by default than anything.

The Lockinge was not full of genuine Group 1 horses, Paco Boy was probably the only one but plenty seem to feel the need to defend the form as it is scene as a slight against Gladiatorus. A top form Ravens Pass or Henrythenavigator would have slaughtered this bunch on Saturday ground aside.

As for Pipedreamer, James Willoughby and Tom Segal were doing a seasonal preview on Racing Post TV a few weeks back and Pipedreamer was a horse both said they would love to see back at a mile. When asked why they thought he was running over 10 furlongs Willoughby stated it was simply because they trainer is too stubborn to drop him in trip after being told by so many that a mile would suit better.
 
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Galileo said:
As for Pipedreamer, James Willoughby and Tom Segal were doing a seasonal preview on Racing Post TV a few weeks back and Pipedreamer was a horse both said they would love to see back at a mile. When asked why they thought he was running over 10 furlongs Willoughby stated it was simply because they trainer is too stubborn to drop him in trip after being told by so many that a mile would suit better.
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Yeah, I saw that, very interesting. I'd have Gosden as my "favourite" trainer in Europe personally taking into account everything about his operation and him as a person but he really should step the horse back in trip. The defeat at Sandown illustrated in perfectly.

The Lockinge has been a weak Group One for a number of years and it will continue to be so due to it's awkward positioning in the calendar and it being so close to the Ispahan. I still think the form of yesterday will stand up better than people may think throughout the season but Virtual will need give underfoot. Can see your point about the proximity of Twice Over though, he does dent the form quite a bit. However, it will always be the case that the proximity of other horses dents the form of races at the top level, I could cite hundreds of races which look weak due to a lesser animal finishing in the frame.

I'll genuinely be gutted if Gladiatorus doesn't come out and turn out to be the superstar I believe him to be, but if he were mine I'd be saving him for Santa Anita, I can't think of a race better suited for him than the BC Mile.
 
Some strange comments on here - It goes from saying that last years 3yo's would have mullered this lot then Twice over is used to pull the form down?

Twice Over is top class over a mile. Never finished out of the first three, beat Raven's Pass over the distance and his trainer simply got the horse wrong last year. He's definitely a Group 2 animal over the distance.

Using that form as a benchmark Virtual and Alexandros are probably just a few pounds (3-5) short of G1 standard. As is Paco Boy over a mile - Sort it out Hannon, drop him back in trip and stop being indignant. There is a six and half furlong group 1 in france (Names escapes me) then the foret then surely they can find an international race for him or save another punt at a mile for later in the year.
 
Aragorn said:
Twice Over is top class over a mile. Never finished out of the first three, beat Raven's Pass over the distance and his trainer simply got the horse wrong last year. He's definitely a Group 2 animal over the distance.
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I agree that he's probably (with cut in the ground) a Group 2 horse over a mile. A big difference between that and "top class" over the trip, surely? He was considerably below the likes of Raven's Pass and Henrythenavigator last year.
 
Not really trackside. It was 1-1 against RP, who ok improved and was definitely a better miler than Twice Over but the second time they met the ground was quicker which would have helped RP (more than Twice Over) and was obviously Henry's favoured ground. He was only beaten 2 and 2 1/2 lengths respectively that day.

On that evidence he is either top class over a mile or only just below it (I'd probably agree he isn't quite top class). Cecil obviously felt he wasn't going to beat either of those two and was probably right (hence the 10-12f campaign but 1m looks to be the horses best trip and his 3yo form certainly warrants him being rated one of the better older milers in what is a poor crop.

Notwithstanding all of that I would be disappointed if the 3yo's weren't better than those that contested the Lockinge.
 
I see the yard can offer nothing about Aqlaam's poor performance.

The market knew though - they couldn't give him away on raceday.
 
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