Lockinge

EC1 said:
using OHR's for a form rating

Excelebration rated 126..beaten 5 lengths @ 2.2lb per length = 137
Dubawi Gold rated 117..beaten 9 lengths @ 2.2lb = 137
Bullet Train rated 106..beaten 12 lengths @ 2.2lb = 132

i actually think Bullet Train is a bit better than his 106 as he never gets chance to show it nowadays..he was rated 109 which is fairer imo..which would make Frankel a 135

OHR wise Frankel has run a 137+..as he never got touched with the whip and wasn't out of 2nd gear really
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The official handicapper tends to use closer to 2 lbs per length over a mile. I think he will here, and he'll pin Bullet Train on his previous best 109, giving him a choice of 136/136/135/133 through the first four. He'll say something on his blog about him not quite needing to run to his QEII form.
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They've gone 138 apparantly!
 
If you won't accept mine and Aidan's word for it, then perhaps you'll accept Sir Michael Stoute's? :)
Why on earth do you think he chose, of all 10f gp1 races, the Eclipse to drop back in trip such as Workforce and Conduit?
It was, is, and will remain, the stiffest 10f gp1 test in the calendar.
 
Desert Orchid said:
Provisionally, yes. I thought I'd mentioned that earlier. On lines with Excelebration and Dubawi Gold running to my best previous marks for them of 125 and 117 respectively, Frankel has run to 137 or 138 (rounded up in both cases) with the promise of more to come. As EC1 says, however, once again it isn't backed up by a fast time rating (unlike Brigadier Gerard who smashed records right left and centre and might still hold the mile record at Sandown). My highest rating for Frankel last season was 134+ hence my assertion that this was his best ever performance (again, with the promise of more to come).
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Thanks. How does this compare with Hawk Wing's Lockinge. Who do you reckon ran the best race?
 
Bar the Bull said:
Queen Anne
Sussex
Juddmonte International
Champions Stakes or QE2 depending on how he goes at York
Breeders Cup Classic or Mile

Retire.

Ride the skates off the finest mares in the business for the rest of his life.

Die.
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:lol: ...I'd settle for that myself.
 
10 furlongs won't be a worry in the world for him, but I can also understand why they might want to show off and smash them up in the Queen Anne achieving a Sea-Bird challenging rating.
 
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I think he will run in:
Queen Anne
International
Champion St


I would like him to run:
Prince Of Wales
International
Irish champion
Arc
Champion St
 
SteveM said:
10 furlongs won't be a worry in the world for him, but I can also understand why they might want to show off and smash them up in the Queen Anne achieving a Sea-Bird challenging rating.
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He's already given that two good goes. I'm starting to think that the trip is the limiting factor and that stepping up might be the only way to hit that rating (if they actually care about such things).

If he's only got, say, 4 races left then the Queen Anne seems like a waste of one of them.
 
sunybay said:
I think he will run in:
Queen Anne
International
Champion St
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Surely you can add one to that list. I would have thought either the Eclipse or the Sussex would be the most likely, possibly both depending on how things work out.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
He's already given that two good goes. I'm starting to think that the trip is the limiting factor and that stepping up might be the only way to hit that rating (if they actually care about such things).

If he's only got, say, 4 races left then the Queen Anne seems like a waste of one of them.
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Yeah, I'd agree with this. I would have preferred the Prince Of Wales's option.
 
Hamm said:
This Cirrus love in needs to be put into context. St Nicholas Abbey has few comparable fans, yet with a clear run would have beaten him in Dubai when everything went in Cirrus des Aigle's favour.
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True, but Cirrus is a better animal over 10f than further.
 
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Yes, but SNA looks the better horse over 12f, so surely there should be more praise for the horse on here? Very strange one.
 
SteveM said:
Thanks. How does this compare with Hawk Wing's Lockinge. Who do you reckon ran the best race?
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I've no doubt Hawk Wing's Lockinge was a better performance than Frankel's. HW beat better horses by further and, I believe, in a faster time (I'll check that later in the week). Where Or When didn't really run to his best form subsequently but Olden Times and Domedriver did.

I'm struggling to get my head round possible reasons why the likes of Brigadier Gerard has very fast pacemakers yet still shattered track records while Frankel and others don't. Were jockeys like Joe Mercer so much better at judging pace - and therefore sectionals - than present day jockeys?

Then again, when Dahlia won her first King George, they did all fall in a heap and she came from well off the pace to win by some way (six lengths?) very comfortably, form which subsequent events proved flattered her.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I've no doubt Hawk Wing's Lockinge was a better performance than Frankel's. HW beat better horses by further and, I believe, in a faster time (I'll check that later in the week). Where Or When didn't really run to his best form subsequently but Olden Times and Domedriver did.

I'm struggling to get my head round possible reasons why the likes of Brigadier Gerard has very fast pacemakers yet still shattered track records while Frankel and others don't. Were jockeys like Joe Mercer so much better at judging pace - and therefore sectionals - than present day jockeys?

Then again, when Dahlia won her first King George, they did all fall in a heap and she came from well off the pace to win by some way (six lengths?) very comfortably, form which subsequent events proved flattered her.
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Thanks again Mo. My gut feeling is that Hawk Wing’s Lockinge performance was superior, although I doubt many will recognise it as such.

I somehow feel Frankel has the scope to surpass even this though. There are very few to compare with Brigadier Gerard, but Hawk Wing’s Lockinge was one such performance. By the end of the season perhaps Frankel will have bettered even this, although like Gareth I believe the full extent of his ability will only be properly expressed when stepping up in trip.
 
SteveM said:
Thanks again Mo. My gut feeling is that Hawk Wing’s Lockinge performance was superior, although I doubt many will recognise it as such.

I somehow feel Frankel has the scope to surpass even this though. There are very few to compare with Brigadier Gerard, but Hawk Wing’s Lockinge was one such performance. By the end of the season perhaps Frankel will have bettered even this, although like Gareth I believe the full extent of his ability will only be properly expressed when stepping up in trip.
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i can't wait for 10f Steve..he will get it easily..bullet train got 11f and Galileo would be a more stamina influence than sadlers wells would have thought + F got 8f as a 2yr stood on his head
 
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EC1 said:
i can't wait for 10f Steve..he will get it easily..bullet train got 11f and Galileo would be a more stamina influence than sadlers wells would have thought + F got 8f as a 2yr stood on his head
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Neither can I... 10 furlongs could prove his optimum trip, although like his less talented brother Noble Mission he will certainly also get 12 furlongs if Queally can hold on to him for long enough.
 
SteveM said:
10 furlongs won't be a worry in the world for him,
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It's clearly a worry for his connections, and they are being very very careful not to step him up in trip until they think he's ready.
In a tv interview only a couple of weeks ago, HRAC sounded hopeful, rather than confident, that he wouldn't have a problem.
 
as a single performance
Hawk Wing higher rating


but Frankel will hit higher figure than last week when conditions are ok for him.
 
I think the concerns have been over his raw speed coupled with his earlier tendency to run very free. Now that he has demonstrated his maturity and willingness to settle, hopefully connections' fears have been allayed.

Don't think we'll ever see him over 12f though, much as I'd love to see him tackle the Arc.
 
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