London Mayor

The point I'm making is that Cameron so far hasn't spelt out what his agenda is. It might be tactical? it might also be that he doesn't have one?. Tony Blair introduced this kind of politics when he ran a campaign based on slightly amorphic things such as "values", "aspirations", "visions" and "things can only get better". Essentially you're running off a nebulous platform which makes attacking the detail very difficult. Attacking something that has identifible shape and form is much easier than attacking what is tantamount to globule of ever changing sentiment. What you hope to do is combine this lack of substance with a fresh face and televisual smile, and hope to plug into a populist sentiment. Barrack Obama is doing exactly the same with his "it's time for change" agenda. David Cameron is no different in that regard.

You might reflect too, that the true architect of the whole 'new Labour project', was actually Margaret Thatcher, and not messers Gould, Mandelson, Brown, Blair, or Campbell. To some extent imitation of a winning formula is the finest compliment you can pay it. It's ironic therefore that at a time when the Tories are anxious to distance themselves from the Thatcher era, Brown in one of his first steps as PM invited her to Downing Street, in some desperate attempt to exploit her image. Does he not realise that she's bad currency?

Thatcher (egged on by Keith Joseph and a few others) to no small extent corrupted the Tory party and turned it into a devisive moneterist party with all the attendent injustices that went with it. In truth the Conservative party doesn't actually have quite that kind of tradition, as there was some semblence of a caring side to it once upon a time that wasn't based on greed, and the systematic creation and penalisation of geo-political regions. Indeed, under Harold McMillian I seem to think the Tories were the majority party in Scotland. It's an observation my local Councillor was condeming her for the other day, as he feels she went along way towards making the party unelectable to a whole generation of people, and actually resents what she's done to them. Two conservative party chairman are on record somewhere as variously acknowledging this.

"No one with a conscience votes Conservative" - N Tebbit
(the tory party are) "the nasty party" - T. May

Cameron needs to present a more charismatic alternative as it's no longer acceptable to penalise minorities and single out and punish certain socio-economic groups in the pursuit of satisfying the electoral arithmatic necessary to buy the C2 vote in Basildon. To do this though he's simply apeing the Blair model. To some extent Brown was penalising the lower income groups with the 10p band, when pursuing the C1 and B vote which is so crucial to his prospects. (for the first time in the last 10 years my pay packet increased this month as a result of a budget :laughing: - don't see that lasting beyond November )

Unless Gordon Brown can pull Cameron into an argument about substance then Labour look destined to lose now. Johnson is another example of this as he's relied on personality rather than ideas (and to no small extent the "anyone but Livingstone" vote). When Johnson did try and engage in detail he looked horribly exposed, and if I were handling him, I'd have done the same, as he all too quickly demonstrated a very limited grasp of his brief and was notably poor on detail.

I actually think you can trace the whole thing collpase in Labour's prospects to last years party conference season and some pretty desperate and unconvincing spouting by the Tories which I doubt even they believed themselves. Brown made one serious mistake during that week, which at the time might have been cast into the file marked 'bad day at the office'. As it happened it set in train a chain of events, which as so often occurs, was magnified out of all proportion, and from which Labour has never recovered in the polls since. Leaving the specifics of the gaf apart, what it actually allowed the Tories to start doing is also very interesting, and its a tactic I've used myself when involved with adversarial conflict situations, and it does have military applications too.

Conventional thinking is that you probe away at weaknesses and try and exploit these. There is an alternative course of action, which is a bit desperate but can be devastating if delivered unexpectedly, at the right time, and swiftly. Far from attacking the point of weakness, what you do instead is attack at the point of perceived strength, and seek to deliver a debilitating or even knock out blow. After having built up a reputation as the 'Iron Chancellor' etc The one thing they shouldn't have been able to do, was portray Brown as a "ditherer". It was gamble, but it tells me that the much vaunted Labour spin machine has broken down. Similarly, Brown had hitherto (and for the first time in its history) given Labour a record for economic management (they were regularly out scoring the Tories in this area when voters were asked which party they trusted the most to handle various issues). Attacking Brown on the economy wasn't necessarily the most obvious thing to do, but it now looks like a trump card. Again, I'm left wondering where the spin machine has gone? It should be kicking in, with excuses explaining away the world economy, trotting out the unparalelled record of economic growth, blaming American investments etc and then finally saying something to effect of 'look things are going to get rocky for a year or two. Who would you rather trust to take you through these choppy water? The Chancellor whose given you 10 years of economic stability and growth? Or a light weight smiley face from the Bullingdon club with no experience? Even the ten percent tax band could have been played out better if it had been linked to tax credits and minimum wage legislation.

Brown came into office promising to move away from spin and concentrate on issues and substance, sensing perhaps that the public were growing tired of it. Right now he's a victim of this move, and Cameron is essentially using the same tactics against him, that Blair slaughtered Major, Howard, Hague and Duncan-Smith with. Having said that, commentators talk about a 'good election to lose' this one looks like being just that.
 
Thanks for your detailed post warbler and I don't think i'm qualified to comment on most of it.

What ever the truths are in what you say, my opinion remains people have been brainwashed by a tax and spend government, and therefore think this type of government "has real ideas" and "forceful policy's". The conservative's get squeezed either way. State the facts about this country and issues like immigration, they're bordering on racist and right wing, or come to a political position which is more in line with the reality of how the situation is, i.e the economy and the social aspects of health, education and crime and they're seen as a "nothing party" with a "nothing leader". I doubt Cameron is perfect, and one of the things we should steer away from is this notion of "iron politicians" and "teflon politicans". I am glad that Boris has got in because not only do I think he's more honest than Ken Livingstone I also think he comes across as human; end of the day Lononers have voted him in and that is that.

As it stands it seems to me the reason some are calling Cameron a "salesman" is because he doesn't do things the labour way, and in my humble opinion he'll win the next election precisely because people don't want it done the labour way. How ironic the saying goes "you can't win" when David is doing just that.

As for your opening line about agenda, i'm a member and I see the agenda everyday of the week. The party as far as I know has done a policy review and has formed and publisized some of it's policys, though it's not for me to start listing them on here. Again, as a tory supporter perhaps i'm biased but I think people havn't listened to the policy's because they don't want to listen to the policy's, but unlike labour I know people aren't stupid and will anaylise things for themselves.

We're not all bad Warbler!! :D Personally i'm looking forward to seeing Cameron on the world stage and how he gets on with being a conservative.
 
I'm not sure that this government has consistently ever had any "big ideas" and for me it's been one of the single most disappointing aspects that despite having had some massive majorities, they largely ran out of ideas after about 2 years (I made some reference to it on the Blair legacy thread we wrote when he left office). What I believe we've seen is the replacement of conviction politics that was driven by a philosophical ideology, with the adoption of what I'll call "nation management", or process administration to give it the Americanism. Things such as devolution, the minimum wage and house of Lords reform would broadly fit the bracket of 'ideas based on philosophy'. All of these were pretty well put through within the first couple of years though. After that they've just fallen back on day to day nation management.

I don't see that Cameron is really offering to do much different, which is why I believe he's doing things exactly the "Labour way". Indeed, many a Tory (including the mad mongoose herself) mentioned that Tony Blair was doing a good job at various times, precisely because he was doing things that they would have done. Politically they might not be much significant difference between the two parties as they've kind of blurred into the centre ground. The differences are largely based on historical perspectives that we variously hold now. If Labour have pinched Tory policies though (as they are often accused of doing), then the Tories have pinched Labour methods, and are now using them against their creators.

Incidentally, I'd be curious to know how you reconcile your believe that

"unlike labour I know people aren't stupid and will anaylise things for themselves"

with your dismissal of people's ability to do just that

"my opinion remains people have been brainwashed by a tax and spend government, and therefore think this type of government "has real ideas" and "forceful policy's"

I'm sure you'll find that a significant number of people are stupid, and although no politician could say it publicly, enough believe it privately. Richard Nixon probably came as close as anyone to getting this aspect right.
 
For the record I believe people can be brainwashed (in the sense of having to hear labour's way of financing things everyday of the week) yet still be able to know what the government is trying to make them think and vote on. We have seen with the results that people want change and you have to be of some intellectual capability to want change.

I reiterate, we don't need your lots votes to win the next election, if all the people that voted conservative on Thursday do so again we will win just fine, we would just like you all to come along with the ride. :D
 
O.k Colin :P I gather i've said my piece and a little bit extra then? :D Got great admiration for United as it goes but Sunderland is my team.
 
Johnson is certainly not a micro-manager, he'll be trying to get the right people into the right jobs and then act as chairman of the board, rather in the manner of an Attlee or a Macmillan.

I wouldn't be too worried about the Olympics, it's already proved to be a disaster and a disgrace, but at least we've already won a gold medal in the Snouts In The Trough event.
 
Originally posted by martin@May 3 2008, 08:34 AM
I reiterate, we don't need your lots votes to win the next election, if all the people that voted conservative on Thursday do so again we will win just fine, we would just like you all to come along with the ride. :D
Well I'm sorry, that's just non-sensical, and like any political party, the Tories will take votes where ever they can get them from. To suggest you don't need swing voters is daft as you've already got them, hence the position you were on in Thursday. The people who voted on Thursday are by definition swing voters that have come from elsewhere, so when you're saying you don't need them, then what you're saying in effect is you don't mind them returning to where they came from? The Tory core vote is about 30%- 32% and Labour's about 26% - 28%. If you were to rely solely on your core vote, you'll lose, so I'm sure you do need votes from other sides.

The 2005 General election saw the following result

Labour 35%
Conservative 32%

The 2008 local elections saw this switch to

Labour 24% (down 11%)
Conservative 44% (up 12%)

Now the correlation between the percentage looks evident at face value. 1 in every 8 people who voted Labour in 2005, were voting Tory in 2008. That is too simplistic though, and not representative either given the constituency base. There is a strong probability that those alienated Tories of the last 10 years who'd sought sanctuary in the Liberal party had returned to the fold, and that the disenchanted Labour vote chose to protest by supporting the Liberals and to a lesser extent the Greens and BNP. It's unusual, (though not unheard of) to get seismic shifts between the two main parties, but my best guess is that a fair degree of swing might have been generated through the Liberals. That is to say the votes that the Tories picked up from the Liberals, was compensated for by the votes that the Liberals picked up from Labour. In effect, this left the Liberals unchanged, and netted the same figures, which could easily be interpreted to suggest Labour were switchign to Conservative. It's always possible too of course, that those who desserted the Tories in 1997 and brought into the 'New labour' myth have gone straight back when confronted with a Tony Blair MKII leading the Tories?

The other thing to note is that it was predominantly district councils who were voting on Thursday, and the urban heartlands of the Labour vote represented by the unitaries weren't required. District Councils are much more suburban by their nature, and very much more inclined to vote Conservative (though not as much as a County Council would). Even the Northern districts have had a history of falling thus.

The way the current boundaries are drawn give Labour an inbuilt advantage as the formula is devised on a number of factors when drawing up a constituency. Population is key (even if it is essentially a non-voting population) but other factors to do with identifiable and demarcated boundaries also come into play. This enables Labour to take a disproportionately large number of seats in a parliamentary election with fewer votes.

Look at the 2005 results to illustrate this

Labour - 9,562,122 votes = 356 seats (1 seat for every 26,859 votes)
Conservative - 8,772,598 = 198 seats (1 seat for every 44,306 votes)

The latest boundary commission review was reckoned to be going to cost them another 20 seats based on the way they're allocated, and that's before you factor in the 62 seats currently held by the Liberals, or even the handful held by various nationalist or independent interests (about 30) some of whom are more inclined to side with labour in any division (Ulster Unionists apart).

If you really believe that the Tories are "50 on" to form the next government, I'm sure they'd be no shortage of takers prepared to risk a few shekels with you at 50 against it happening. They've still got to gain 126 seats just to get a 1 seat majority. Evcen in the 1983 nadir of Labour fortunes, "the longest suicide note in history" was how their manifesto was memorably described, they still managed to poll 27%

The economy as ever will be key, and there's litle immediate prospect to suggest things will get noticably better, but a hung parliament looks distinctly possible at this stage (even though we have no great tradition of them in this country).

I do detect though, that like the dysfunctional major government that was returned in 1992, this one has got tired, has run out of ideas, and the country is ready to let a new batsman take guard.
 
Originally posted by Warbler@May 3 2008, 03:45 PM

Well I'm sorry, that's just non-sensical, and like any political party, the Tories will take votes where ever they can get them from. To suggest you don't need swing voters is daft as you've already got them, hence the position you were on in Thursday. The people who voted on Thursday are by definition swing voters that have come from elsewhere, so when you're saying you don't need them, then what you're saying in effect is you don't mind them returning to where they came from? The Tory core vote is about 30%- 32% and Labour's about 26% - 28%. If you were to rely solely on your core vote, you'll lose, so I'm sure you do need votes from other sides.

The 2005 General election saw the following result

Labour 35%
Conservative 32%

The 2008 local elections saw this switch to

Labour 24% (down 11%)
Conservative 44% (up 12%)

Now the correlation between the percentage looks evident at face value. 1 in every 8 people who voted Labour in 2005, were voting Tory in 2008. That is too simplistic though, and not representative either given the constituency base. There is a strong probability that those alienated Tories of the last 10 years who'd sought sanctuary in the Liberal party had returned to the fold, and that the disenchanted Labour vote chose to protest by supporting the Liberals and to a lesser extent the Greens and BNP. It's unusual, (though not unheard of) to get seismic shifts between the two main parties, but my best guess is that a fair degree of swing might have been generated through the Liberals. That is to say the votes that the Tories picked up from the Liberals, was compensated for by the votes that the Liberals picked up from Labour. In effect, this left the Liberals unchanged, and netted the same figures, which could easily be interpreted to suggest Labour were switchign to Conservative. It's always possible too of course, that those who desserted the Tories in 1997 and brought into the 'New labour' myth have gone straight back when confronted with a Tony Blair MKII leading the Tories?

The other thing to note is that it was predominantly district councils who were voting on Thursday, and the urban heartlands of the Labour vote represented by the unitaries weren't required. District Councils are much more suburban by their nature, and very much more inclined to vote Conservative (though not as much as a County Council would). Even the Northern districts have had a history of falling thus.

The way the current boundaries are drawn give Labour an inbuilt advantage as the formula is devised on a number of factors when drawing up a constituency. Population is key (even if it is essentially a non-voting population) but other factors to do with identifiable and demarcated boundaries also come into play. This enables Labour to take a disproportionately large number of seats in a parliamentary election with fewer votes.

Look at the 2005 results to illustrate this

Labour - 9,562,122 votes = 356 seats (1 seat for every 26,859 votes)
Conservative - 8,772,598 = 198 seats (1 seat for every 44,306 votes)

The latest boundary commission review was reckoned to be going to cost them another 20 seats based on the way they're allocated, and that's before you factor in the 62 seats currently held by the Liberals, or even the handful held by various nationalist or independent interests (about 30) some of whom are more inclined to side with labour in any division (Ulster Unionists apart).

If you really believe that the Tories are "50 on" to form the next government, I'm sure they'd be no shortage of takers prepared to risk a few shekels with you at 50 against it happening. They've still got to gain 126 seats just to get a 1 seat majority. Evcen in the 1983 nadir of Labour fortunes, "the longest suicide note in history" was how their manifesto was memorably described, they still managed to poll 27%

The economy as ever will be key, and there's litle immediate prospect to suggest things will get noticably better, but a hung parliament looks distinctly possible at this stage (even though we have no great tradition of them in this country).

I do detect though, that like the dysfunctional major government that was returned in 1992, this one has got tired, has run out of ideas, and the country is ready to let a new batsman take guard.
No i'm talking about people who come across as labour employee's like yourself, hence why I said "your lots". Anyway i'm not here to argue i'm just a member and happen to think we're doing very well, thats all I can be bothered to say.
 
:laughing: Well I've been called many things before now, but not for a long time has anyone suggested I'm a Labour employee, or even accussed me of voting for them. Reassuring to know that the political antenna amongst the rank and file is still malfunctioning and that the traditions of prejudical judgementalism is alive and kicking though.
 
Warbler wrote:
<< Thatcher (egged on by Keith Joseph and a few others) to no small extent corrupted the Tory party and turned it into a devisive moneterist party with all the attendent injustices that went with it. In truth the Conservative party doesn't actually have quite that kind of tradition, as there was some semblence of a caring side to it once upon a time that wasn't based on greed, and the systematic creation and penalisation of geo-political regions. Indeed, under Harold McMillian I seem to think the Tories were the majority party in Scotland. It's an observation my local Councillor was condeming her for the other day, as he feels she went along way towards making the party unelectable to a whole generation of people, and actually resents what she's done to them. Two conservative party chairman are on record somewhere as variously acknowledging this.

"No one with a conscience votes Conservative" - N Tebbit
(the tory party are) "the nasty party" - T. May >>


It's a fact that under Thatcher a very large number of working class people became significantly better off [my in-laws among them], partly by being able to buy their own home [this was as much due to falling mortgage fees as to the sale of council houses, with which I'm not btw in total agreement]. Thatcher created a climate which encouraged small businesses and the new service industries. The fate of large swathes of the North was largely due to entrenched and corrupt Labour Councils [and far-left-run unions] refusing to take measures offered which would have been in the interests of their constituents/members.

Demonising Thatcher is intellectually lazy and historically dishonest, and however ghastly she was, to fail to acknowledge the good as well as condemn the mistakes renders the arguments of the 'deniers' unworthy of attention.

In the last ten years, in contrast to those years, the gap between rich and poor has become wider than at any time since before WWII - and that's entirely thanks to Brown's economic policies. It disgusts me and it disgusts a lot of other people - the supposed 'greed' of the Thatcher era pales beside what we've seen under New Labour - Peter Mandelson and Cherie Blair are talismanic in the Labour attitude to money. The personal debt in this country is unprecedented and unsustainable as I've been saying for years - and the bankruptcies are gathering pace very fast. Meanwhile we have a huge number of obscenely rich, who are fawned over by Govt and the media alike. I won't even go into the use of Lord Levy and his subsequent 'hanging out to dry'.

Warbler, your supposed quotes from the previous chairmen are entirely specious, shame on you!
They were both quoting what *other people* - esp the leftie media - chose to say about the Tories, and how the image had got stuck in the public consciousness, as any fule knowe. And as anyone with any intellectual honesty would admit.
 
Originally posted by Headstrong@May 5 2008, 02:01 PM
It's a fact that under Thatcher a very large number of working class people became significantly better off [my in-laws among them], partly by being able to buy their own home [this was as much due to falling mortgage fees as to the sale of council houses, with which I'm not btw in total agreement]. Thatcher created a climate which encouraged small businesses and the new service industries. The fate of large swathes of the North was largely due to entrenched and corrupt Labour Councils [and far-left-run unions] refusing to take measures offered which would have been in the interests of their constituents/members.

Any reduction in mortgage fees was more than wiped out by the interest rates that the Tories presided over. People could afford to buy council houses because they were sold off below market value, and to suggest that it was some how down to mortgage fees is grossly over-stating how people were able to do this. We are of course paying the penalty for this now.

She also presided over a particularly regressive taxation system (adopted long before European standardisation of VAT) which penalised poorer people. No analysis of Thatcher's commitment to the poor however, could be complete without mentioning the poll tax. If ever anything shone as a beacon as to the inner workings of her punitive mind it was this single piece of legislation that was most definately discriminatory and aimed at taxing the poor whilst trying to shift the blame to local authorities. Let's not forget where she chose to introduce it first either? The tax burden under the conservative actually went up, although a lot of it was in stealth taxes (yes, I'm convinced Brown copied the tactic) of using headline income tax cuts, and getting it back in things such as NI and VAT, which Geoffrey Howe and later Nigel Lawson did

She presided over a fire sale of various strategic state owned industries in the name of creating a share holding democracy. yeah ... right. Over 50% of the shares were traded on the first day, and bought up by institutions with the result that just about none of the companies involved are in UK ownership any more, and some of course no longer exist. They sold Britoil at a price too high and the take up wasn't brilliant (widely regarded as a flop). After that they preceeded to give companies away. The individual could of course benefit with a few 100 shares, but it was nothing compared to what the rich and the institutions hived off. And did the public benefit in the long run from cheaper prices through efficiency gains from these privatised monopolies? No. The French company that supply my electricity and gas have put their prices up again, and its cheaper to fly the Atlantic than it is to catch a train to certain parts of the country. The legacy of this is a quasi indirect imposition of mobility aparthied. It brought a wry smile to my face the other day when a coupel of commentators were talking about the demand for energy and pointing out the influence of China. The problem, they were saying, was that the Chinese consumer (about 20% of the worlds population) has no incentive to conserve their energy use, because their prices are subsidised. If only we had a saftey net instead of toothless regulators, who've introduced payment methods of course that benefit rich people over poor and thus make their useage cheaper.

The North Sea oil revenues were largely squandered on tax cuts for the rich too, which also fuelled a spending boom and an unsustainable bubble built around the speculative price of property. By keeping interest rates high however (in contrast to Labour) this resulted in the crisis of the early 90's where negative equity became the issue, once people's circumstances changed. There were a whole host of comparatively minor changes too, such as ending free prescriptions and eye tests which impact on low income households

Again, I don't think any retrospective analysis of Thatcher would be complete with out mentioning the fact that she managed to preside over 2 significant recessions which saw unemployment go over three million (probably many more as she made over 20 alterations to the formula that calculated the figure in an attempt to massage it). Well strictly speaking, she started the second one and John Major finished it off. No one could possibly describe unemployment as advancing the wealth of poorer people.

The so called economic miracle (or Lawson boom as its sometimes called) is also a bit of a myth. In truth (and I think this is very important) it impacted on certain industries, in certain parts of the country, and lasted about 2-3 years. The service sector might have grown, but don't think that this is about financial services alone and jobs in the city etc. The sector is notoriously less glamorous than this, and typically involves low paid, low skilled employment, with crappy regulation and protection, and similarly crappy terms and conditions, and is particularly vulnerable to recessionary pressures as it depends on consumer spending. We saw this in the early 90's when a lot of these 'sunrise' businesses struggled, whilst established manufacturing was able to ride out the recession much better. This time of course, the recession did impact on the South of England, precisely because their industrial structure had been left exposed thus. Essentially, you can't export haircuts, fingernail polishing, or office cleaning very easily so when the domestic spending dried up, these types of businesses perished. It might also explain why both the French and Italians over-took us the GDP table (since reversed again)

You've got some strange ideas regarding a Council's remit and extent of their powers. The idea that your local authority was running down manufacturing industry in the North of England is frankly, plain bonkers!!! They don't have any say in the issue, although a lot of local authorities introduced local economic development sections at the time as a way of trying to arrest some of the havoc that Thatchers free market mantra was wreaking. These would typically involve small business support (grants etc) training schemes that weren't YOP or YTS (something else that would penalise the young workign class) and the promotion of their local area for inward investment, as well as regeneration schemes. As for being corrupt Labour councils, there's a few that come to mind, though in most cases badly run would be a fairer description. The worst cases of corruption I can think of from this period involved Doncaster (labour) and Westminster (conservative) these were the ones that ended up with prosecutions, although Shirley Porter legged it to Israel and hid behind her Tesco inheritance. Is Asil Nadir still hiding in Cyprus?

Similarly, I don't have too much difficulty seeing why the miners (to use one obvious example) went on strike to defend their industry, jobs, livelihoods, and communities. Trade Unions are naturally conservative organisations and a lot of their activity is based around defending the gains they've achieved. They were told that the then Coal Board had a hit list of 120 ear-marked for closure. Everyone ridiculed Scargills claim. The truth is more than 120 were shut, and when it became expedient they closed the Nottingham pits too. The result is that we lose a strategically important industry, and now have to rely on unstable (middle east) and less than friendly (Russia) for our energy supply. I'm struggling to see how you can reconcile widespread job losses with being in the best interests of the trade union members? Turkeys don't vote for Christmas
 
Originally posted by Warbler@May 6 2008, 02:14 AM
Any reduction in mortgage fees was more than wiped out by the interest rates that the Tories presided over. People could afford to buy council houses because
.............They were hard working people like my mum who were in a unfavourable positiion in life perhaps? It was people that bought them council houses not Thatchers policy's.
 
Warbler

That reads like a list of the same old sniping at bits and pieces of Thatchers policies, whilst completely missing the main point

Yes, the poll tax was a disgrace and there were mistakes made by the arrogant Lawson. She was in power a long time. No goverment gets it perfect all the time (especially given that they were charting unfamiliar waters at that time)

But as surely anyone would acknowledge, it was the change in culture that was significant. Ok the odd bearded college lecturer might not like it, but this country was in serious trouble at the end of the seventies

No one at that stage could have predicted that Britain would become a self confident enterprising economic powerhouse once again. Still less would they have anticipated that otherr countries would follow the examples set here

It was inconceivable...

The north sea oil get out clause does not add up . Look at teh basket case taht is Saudi? Revenues can uickly be blown by dismal econimic policies

Its not all been perfect of course and there were unfortunate casulties but the natural instincts of the british (which is entreprenurial and creative rather than socialist and conformist) were brought to the fore. This is crucial IMO

There were many factors of Thatcher i didnt particularly warm to (the xenophobia was embarrasing for one) but when i look at the alternatives on offer at that time

We had the idiot Benn ("mao the greatest leader etc etc") near to securing the deputy leadership of the Labour party and we had Foot aiming to...and this would seem incredible to anyone now...nationlise the FTSE 100

Read that again.... Nationalise the FTSE 100

How stupid is that?

Ultimately the country knew in its heart of hearts that much had to change and they rightly saw Thatchers administration as being the only ones with the guts to do so.

Not everything about this country is perfect (how could it be? but where would we be now after 20 years of a Kinnock/Benn administration?
 
I would have thought that the seriously dim, pig headed and incompetent Scargil should be at the forefront of your memories

Interesting to wonder where mining would stand now in these enviromentally concerned times?

I do sometimes wonder if the pit closures were less on economic grounds than political but it was undeniably a declining industry

The great mistake at that time was not further developing Nuclear power (to the extent france did say) which we are in desperate need of now
 
Would oil be any cheaper if we had a coal industry?

Back in the sixties when the decision to abandon steam to power trains, we, in the coal industry were saying that we would become beholden to the Arab Countries. I don't think we were aware of oil resources in other parts of the world.
 
Would oil be any cheaper if we had a coal industry?

Doubtful. The prices are hardly driven by the UK's consumption

Its a difficult one that is a mix of complex scientific and economic arguments.

Agree with you about Scargill. He was so repellent to the man in the street that he was the perfect enemy for Thatcher :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by clivex@May 6 2008, 10:33 AM
I do sometimes wonder if the pit closures were less on economic grounds than political but it was undeniably a declining industry

Nothing to do with economics Clive (or if it was, it was very much a secondary consideration). It was well documented that we were buying in coal at a more expensive price than our own deep mined. The economic argument was only really used in 1992 when the government decided it was time to finish off the Notts pits and those darling little hard workers the UDM who so gallantly propped Thatcher up in her hour of need. In truth, it wa sprobably the failure of NACODS to come out that was the turning point, something which Thatch has acknowledged in her own memoirs as the point she was most fearful of losing and the lights going out. It came down a 2-3 week window, but NACODS were brought off seperately and the coal continued to be mined.

The preparation was laid down in the 1978 Ridley report which the government (then opposition) tasked the hapless Nicholas Ridley to write. Basically it was a tactical document about what would be necessary to crush 1% of the trade union movement, (his family made their millions out of the Northumbrian coalfields, and then made even more selling their private pits to the government and NCB). They didn't do it straight away, as they needed to get the required legislation in place regarded the seizing of union assests, the banning of secondary action and flying pickets etc The Coal Board and NUM had adopted the 'Plan for Coal' but then had Iain McGregor imposed them, which was pretty well the last piece in the jigsaw once stockpiles at the powerstations had been built up. The only thing that remained then was to find a switch to ignite the conflict.
 
It was well documented that we were buying in coal at a more expensive price than our own deep mined.

Yes. Maybe so with direct purchase price, but does that factor in the huge subsidies ?

The economic argument was a complex one
 
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