Migration and Asylum

Grey

Grey

Senior Jockey
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
9,484
Location
Dublin
Cameron's complaint that Italy and Greece are not doing enough to stop the flow of refugees coming into Europe is ignorant. He's like someone coming to their front door in dressing gown, slippers and pyjamas to complain to smoke-blackened firemen that their efforts to put out the fire next door are keeping his family awake.

Actually it's even worse than that, because by his actions in Libya Cameron helped to start the fire in the first place.

Italy, Malta and the Greek islands are trying to cope with a humanitarian crisis, and contrary to the impression being given only a small minority of these refugees are set on making it to the UK.
 
I dunno, maybe he has a point.
Isn't Italy giving all the migrants who land there a "free pass" and sending them north to Northern Europe?
Just last week, I saw on television a whole batch of immigrants bussed to Italy's border with France. France in exasperation, refused entry to them.


I can't speak on the Greek situation, but haven't I read that the immigrants spend just about two days hanging around the police station and are then given ID papers that enables them to travel northwards through the Balkans?
 
Grey said:
only a small minority of these refugees are set on making it to the UK.
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I'm not sure if I agree with this view either.
The UK seems to be, for whatever reason, a sort of magnet for many of these immigrants judging by the nightly scenes at Calais.
 
The UK is a magnet for some, but compare the numbers at Calais with the overall numbers coming into Europe.

Regarding Italy and Greece, what would you do in their situation? I read today by the way that the UK government is giving extra aid to local authorities in Kent to cope with the additional burden they face. On the other hand they argue in Brussels against equivalent help for Italy and Greece.
 
"We simply can not have a situation where a failed pariah state festers on Europe's southern border. This would potentially threaten our security, push people across the Mediterranean and create a more dangerous and uncertain world for Britain and for all our allies"

- David Cameron demonstrating what a superbly insightful grasp he has of Foreign Policy in a Commons Statement when justifying his decision to topple Gadaffi

I wonder which bit of this he thinks he's achieved?

I do however think there are some quite sensible liberal soltuions to this which I'm working on. Could there be a role for the countryside alliance now that they failed to get the hunting ban repealed? Or the American dentistry profession? It could all be one giant conspiracy theory though?
 
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Grey said:
Regarding Italy and Greece, what would you do in their situation? I read today by the way that the UK government is giving extra aid to local authorities in Kent to cope with the additional burden they face. On the other hand they argue in Brussels against equivalent help for Italy and Greece.
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Kent votes for them, the Greeks and Italian's don't. In any case, Europe has plenty of resoruces to deal with it. Perhaps they could ask for the £850M back that they gave to Egypt for the promotion of human rights, and which the Egyptians can't account for
 
Grey said:
Regarding Italy and Greece, what would you do in their situation?
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Answer: Either grant them asylum, or if upon investigation they are found not to be genuine refugees fleeing persecution -- send them back to where they came from!

I'm confident that you are familiar with the Dublin Regulation which stipulates that an asylum seeker must register in the first E.U. country he/she pitches up in.
Italy and Greece are clearly not abiding by this EU-wide accord. Instead, they are blind-siding the spirit of the agreement by forwarding onwards with just minimal delay all or most of the immigrants who land on their shores. So, yes, Cameron does have grounds for complaint.

Passing the buck onto someone else never solves a problem. Shoving your immigrant population onto a fellow EU member state is not cordial.
 
Just who is passing the buck to whom? That response is the equivalent of the rest of the UK telling Kent to get stuffed and sort out the problem on their own.

Yes, I've heard of the Dublin Convention and could never understand why so-called frontline Member States ever agreed to it. There are thought to be around a thousand refugees a day landing on the Greek islands. It's not good enough to say to bankrupt Greece that they must deal with the situation on their own and proceed to lecture them when they fail to cope.
 
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Grey said:
Yes, I've heard of the Dublin Convention and could never understand why so-called frontline Member States ever agreed to it.
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But they did

The Bush administration ripped up 27 internationally binding treaties IIRC, quite probably for the same reason, he doubtless couldn't understand why America signed them either. It's no defence to simply say something is invalidated because you couldn't understand why someone signed something.

The signatories should renegotiate it then. Imagine what sort of expenses claims they could rack up doing that. It would keep at least 500 of them in work for a decade, as there's no way Europe would ever get agreement
 
Sure Warbler, you can retreat behind a screen of jibes if you want, but what do you seriously think should happen to deal with this problem? I don't have any answers but I don't think telling Italy and Greece to sort it out on their own will get us anywhere. In the short term humanitarian aid is needed in the Greek islands. Experienced people from the likes of Medecins San Frontieres say the situation there is as bad as anything they've ever seen.
 
Grey said:
On the other hand they argue in Brussels against equivalent help for Italy and Greece.
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Ironically, reducing the crippling burden on Greece is something the EU could do something about, but they systematically refuse to do so. Indeed, the de-facto President of Europe has basically said she doesn't trust them. Greece of course got itself in this almighty mess because of that wretched currency. Do you think the EU is part of the solution or part of the problem?
 
I'm getting the impression from the remarks above that the UK can't be counted on to make a constructive contribution to making even a humanitarian contribution to ameliorating this crisis.
 
Grey said:
I'm getting the impression from the remarks above that the UK can't be counted on to make a constructive contribution to making even a humanitarian contribution to ameliorating this crisis.
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Yep that's right, if you're prepared to make such ill-advised statements and sweeping generalisations about the UK premised on comments attributed to myself and Clive on a racing forum, then quite frankly I can't think of many better adverts for why the EU should be dismantled and it's army of eurocrats put out to pasture.

As I'm sure you're aware, both myself and Clive have seats around the cabinet table, so the wild "impressions" that you've arrived by way of conclusion are perfectly well founded. Incidentally, Icebreaker is Irish, perhaps you'd be so consistent as to denounce your own country based on his contribution? After all his one voice represents a bigger percentage of the population than mine and Clives does to the UK

I do believe incidentally that David Cameron should be banned from making foreign policy and put in special measures. I also think that William Hague should have been sectioned under the mental health act, and that the EU should impeach Nicholas Sarkozy, but they won't. Remind us what the EU did to penalise France when they forcibly repatriated ethnic Albanians? You see the EU turns a blind eye when it's France or Germany. Who was the first two European countries to break the Stability and Growth Pact that said a deficit shouldn't go above 3% of GDP? What did the EU do about it? Fine them like they were supposed to? They don't mind coming down heavy on Greece though
 
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It's their borders. We will deal with our own . Would we expect Greece and Italy to help us after scottish independence when their hoards will be trying to scale hadrians wall? Don't think so

and it is entirely wrong (but not unexpected ) to suggest that the uk is doing nothing at all in the med

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33215266
 
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Grey said:
The UK is a magnet for some, but compare the numbers at Calais with the overall numbers coming into Europe.

Regarding Italy and Greece, what would you do in their situation? I read today by the way that the UK government is giving extra aid to local authorities in Kent to cope with the additional burden they face. On the other hand they argue in Brussels against equivalent help for Italy and Greece.
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if you think that Itally and Greece are doing right...then what if we do what they do?..instead of bussing them to the next border we stick them on boats and send them elsewhere....USA..Australia..back to Europe..well anywhere bar here ..as they are doing. Seems like pass the parcel..and yet by letting them pass through ..the countries involved are breaking EU regulations aren't they?

Its clear that if someone is truly seeking asylum..then as soon as they reach safety..thats it ...they have got the asylum they have sought have they not?. If you were dying of thirst in a desert..would you walk past the first person you saw with water and try and find someone else?
 
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icebreaker said:
I can't speak on the Greek situation, but haven't I read that the immigrants spend just about two days hanging around the police station and are then given ID papers that enables them to travel northwards through the Balkans?
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Yes and travel out of Greece whichever way they want to go.
 
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Grey said:
Still hiding behind jibes, Warbler.
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Not really, I'm just staggered that you'd be prepared to put such a stupid comment into the public domain given that you're supposed to represent the EU but carry no elected mandate (you can cut politicians some slack for different reasons) but it frankly makes you look daft and incredibly unprofessional. Do you really base your "impressions" ... about the UK on what your read on Talking Horses?. Do you really conclude that the country "can't be counted on to make a constructive contribution" because of this forum. If you do, then frankly you shouldn't be in post
 
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EC1 said:
if you think that Itally and Greece are doing right...then what if we do what they do?..instead of bussing them to the next border we stick them on boats and send them elsewhere....USA..Australia..back to Europe..
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Holyhead to Dublin?

Why do I doubt the Irish will be getting the bunting out? They'll behave the same as everywhere else bar Sweden.
 
clivex said:
It's their borders. We will deal with our own . Would we expect Greece and Italy to help us after scottish independence when their hoards will be trying to scale hadrians wall? Don't think so

and it is entirely wrong (but not unexpected ) to suggest that the uk is doing nothing at all in the med

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33215266
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The UK has sent one patrol vessel to the Med to help fish refugees out of the sea. Well so has Ireland, it's not exactly a big deal, certainly not something I'd dare mention as a significant contribution to a serious humanitarian crisis.

EC1, Greece is already being criticised for power-hosing people on board boats in the Aegean that are trying to come ashore on the islands, but I haven't heard that they are sending them back out to sea. Anyway, what would you do in their situation? The country is broke(n), banks shut for weeks, 20%+ unemployment, etc. If refugees want to move on to somewhere better able to cope, how motivated as a Greek official would you be to stop them?
 
Warbler said:
Not really, I'm just staggered that you'd be prepared to put such a stupid comment into the public domain given that you're supposed to represent the EU but carry no elected mandate (you can cut politicians some slack for different reasons) but it frankly makes you look daft and incredibly unprofessional. Do you really base your "impressions" ... about the UK on what your read on Talking Horses?. Do you really conclude that the country "can't be counted on to make a constructive contribution" because of this forum. If you do, then frankly you shouldn't be in post
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That's ridiculous, I participate on this forum in a private capacity just like everyone else.
 
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Grey said:
That's ridiculous, I participate on this forum in a private capacity just like everyone else.
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Ah the Facebook defence, that's never got anyone in trouble has it?

I was only speaking to people in a private capacity. Just my friends. And any strangers they choose to share my posts with. As well as anyone who has open site of course. Plus the 1000 people who I haven't clue who they are. Not to mention anyone who feels aggrieved that the UK handed over £7Bn to the Irish on extremely favourable terms only to see them handing out lectures. I mean, how was I to know that a mischievous journalist/ conservative party member, or even worse, UKIP, were active users of the site or even casually browsing it?. It was a racing forum after all, I mean, it's not like you'd expect to find any Conservativbe party members on it would you. How could anyone possibly have foreseen them copying ill thought out posts to a UK MP who in turn decided to raise it formally?
 
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