Naaqoos

Here you go Michael:

RP Longchamp Standards

Distance (y) : Time (s)
1100 : 56.8
1540 : 80
1650 : 87.3
1760 : 97.4
1870 : 104
1980 : 110.5
2035 : 113
2090 : 117.2
2145 : 119
2200 : 123.9
2310 : 130
2420 : 137
2640 : 151.5
2750 : 157
2860 : 163.2
2970 : 171
3080 : 179
3300 : 191.4
3410 : 198.5
3520 : 206
4400 : 261
 
I think they're a poor bunch this year, and long held suspicion about the O'Brien pair, as they were 8-10L's off what truly top performers were registering with me in years gone past. Mastercraftsmen duly confirmed this for me, though I was tickled by Damien Walker saying that RipVonWinkles chances had "just improved" and we've clipped him in 2pts. His chances hadn't improved. They remained no different. As neither horse is good enough at this stage, and he still has own limitations to contend with at this stage of his development. Having said that, it's not unheard for a golden generation of 2yo's to 'go wrong' and a modest bunch to 'come on'. If a score of 100 is normally needed on the speed scale that some of use, no ones really peppering it like Zarkava, Natagora, Teofilo, Holy Roman Emperor, and to a lesser extent New Approach, Authorized and Dutch Art who were high 90's merchants of recent years. Mind you, there's a few Ibn Khalduns and Evening Times to throw in there for balance.


On a line through Intense Focus and Bushranger, Mastercraftsman has run below form.

To suggest Sundays race was a fair reflection of his ability is folly, he has beaten Intense Focus on THREE occasions before Sunday but couldn't beat him yesterday.

Are you prepared to consider that the Ballydoyle 2yo's are over-hyped yet Gal and nothing like a patch on previous cohorts? All points to Naaqoos after the Dewhurst. Admittedly RVW got a strange ride but was ultimately taken off his feet a bit, and when asked to throw down his challenge, wasn't good enough to bridge the gap.

I still maintain this is a very weak crop of 2yo's, and I haven't found anything other Naaqoos whose in the sort of territory that I normally expect a top 2yo to be close, and even Naaqoos's effecor is more akin to something like Dutch Art
 
Form franked :)

Disgraceful aftertiming here but I kept the faith with the Criterium and backed him outright and with Lord Shanakill and Ashram in a comibantion forecast.
 
The same was being said last year Warbler...they won the Guineas, Irish Derby etc.

You think Mastercraftman ran to form in France when he lost to Intense Focus for the first time in 4 encounters...I do not (nor does the formbook).

I think Rip Van Winkle was given alot to do today in a race where those handy did best...you obviously don't.
 
So who's the Champion 2yo?

Naaqoos? Mastercraftsman? Bushranger? Intense Focus? Rainbow View? Or something to come, perhaps in the RP Trophy?
 
The same was being said last year Warbler...they won the Guineas, Irish Derby etc.

You think Mastercraftman ran to form in France when he lost to Intense Focus for the first time in 4 encounters...I do not (nor does the formbook).

I think Rip Van Winkle was given alot to do today in a race where those handy did best...you obviously don't.

I'm not sure the same was being said last year. My recollection was that most of the talk centred on New Approach being very good, unless you're interpreting lack of comment about the Ballydoyle horses as tantamount to them being poor my omission?

As I've said before I keep private speed rating figures and for the most part (although they're hardly infallible) they tend to serve quite well in highlighting emerging top class 2yo's and after a bit of time, I've come to learn what sort of figure a top class prospect is capabel of registering.

To a large extent a good figure can only be acheived by running a strong pace throughout he race, and the log is full of visually impressive winners who've triumphed off a moderate pace, who then get taken off their feet in a true test (which is much more likely to be the type of race that these prospects will face in a Guineas).

The four figures i have for Mastercraftsman are as follows;
(The figure in brackets is the going correction)

Railway Stakes - 88.31 (+1.78 - fast side of good)
Phoenix Stakes - 88.95 (+1.53 - good)
National Stakes - 94.13 (-12.48 - very heavy)
Prix Lagadere - 96.20 (+3.65 - Firm G/F in places)

It's a progressive profile, and is just about on the edge of what would be considered notable in a normal year. Anything above 95 as a rule of thumb is notable, and a horse that beats 100 is very noteworthy (you get about 2 or 3 in a year normally that beat 100, although this year I haven't found a single one). On this figure he's run to form and pretty well to expectation, as a 2yo normally improves about 2.5pts with each race in group company, which means he'd have been expected to get about 98 by Longchamp using the Railways stakes as a baseline. If you use the national stakes as a baseline then he'd have been expected to reach 96.63 in France, and hasn't missed out on that projection by more than half a length. The Lagadere was by far the fastest race he'd been pitched into to date, and it is worth considering (imho) that the first time he was asked to do this, he was found wanting.

Rip Van Winkle I'll need to adjust later this evening when the full Newmarket results are in, but to date he's coming from a lower base having won moderately paced races in;

83.05 - (+0.88 good)
83.82 - (-1.19 good)

I'd expect him to hit a figure of about 90 on a normally progressive curve, but could be up at 95+ if Intense Focus is allowed to set the projection. It might transpire again, that the Dewhurst has been quick, and that this is the first time that RVW has been pitched into such a race, and again he's been found out slightly as he hasn't placed.

The Bolger colt is the interesting one as his graph is much more of roller coaster (which is unusual, though not unheard of). Most aspiring 2yo champions have a line of constant linear progression closer to that of Mastercraftsman.

maiden - 84.70 (+1.67 - good)
Coventry - 91.69 (+3.31 G/F F in places)
Railway Stakes - 88.06 (+1.78 fast side of Good)
Angelsey - 85.58 (+0.68 good)
National Stakes - 79.23 (-12.48 swamp)
Goffs Million - 88.02 (-0.24 good)
Lagadere - 96.70 (+3.65 Firm G/F in places)

His two quickest (best?) runs have come on a firm surface with a going correction above +3.50 I don't know how significant this is, but I'm sure you were pointing this out last year in defence of Henrythenavigator whose form dipped mid season in line with the amount of hideous rain we had. He's also put up modest figures on ground that was good, and his worst result occurred on heavy ground, which at -12.48, which is borderline raceable on the flat. His modest mid season figures have also come in moderately paced races too, and his profile is very similar to that of Henry's 2yo career. When he's faced a more punishing pace he's improved for it. It remains to be seen whether the Dewhurst is going to yield such a figure or whether he gets a going correction in excess of +3.50 again

In short I don't believe there are many good candidates this year, and I'd normally have about 7 or 8 who've run in excess of 97. To date I've got just one colt, and at 98.70 he's not exactly bomb proof.

Rip Van Winkle might have been given a lot to do, but the simple fact is, he couldn't do it when he was asked to. In a funny way it reminds me of Zarkava's win in the Bousacc. She was given even more to do, in a race that subsequently threw up quite a few winners. I didn't believe I was going to record a quicker 2yo filly last term than I had for Natagora, who'd put in a couple of 100+ performances and a whole host of 95 and above runs. Zarkava not only eclipsed Natagora in the Bousacc, she also came from out of the clouds to do it. The explanatiopn for this I reasoned was because she was a bit special. She turned out to be more special than I realised, but I was never able to get a price on her after this win, though did consider 11/1 for the Arc at the start of the season, and even 8's after her Pouliches. RVW might have been set a task today, but he wasn't up to it. That's not to say he can't win a Guineas, as I believe this is a poor year. Right now though Freddie Head holds the trump card I believe
 
Well, the trials next April should be more interesting than usual. I suspect the 2000 Guineas winner may not have been seen in a Group race yet.
 
I'd expect him to hit a figure of about 90 on a normally progressive curve, but could be up at 95+ if Intense Focus is allowed to set the projection. It might transpire again, that the Dewhurst has been quick, and that this is the first time that RVW has been pitched into such a race, and again he's been found out slightly as he hasn't placed.

It transpires that the Dewhurst isn't the easiest race for me to do as there's 3 slow races on the card hinting at the presence of a tailwind as the slower events occured at longer distances where the tail wind will have been a cross wind for a bit. If I use my normal method, then the ground has ridden +2.59 which would be slightly on the slower side of Good to Firm. If I split the sample, then its ridden +3.29 which is on the fast side of Good to Firm, borderline Firm G/F in places. I'm inclined to think that +3.29 is the more accurate, although some of this will be attributable to a tailwind I believe.

Consequently I have two ratings for the winner

96.35 and 92.23, which I've agreed to average at 94.29. The first figure of 96.35 would be the more consistent barometer given that its been achieved using the identical calculation, formula/ method that I've used for all the others I generate, and when it is compared to the 96.70 that Intense Focus ran in the Grand Criterium it seems to suggest that he's pretty well replicated his Longchamp run to about a quarter of length. My suspicion however, is that the 92.23 is likely to be the more accurate figure. If I compromise on 94.29, this would make Rip Van Winkle about 92.20 which is where I thought he would be. Were he to run again, then I expect he's up to about 94.70 which isn't really a Guineas winning candidate, but in this weak year it might be enough.

Intersting again that Intense Focus has put in another fast performance on quick ground (well fast in the context of his record)

96.70 on +3.65
94.29 on +2.94
91.69 on +3.31
 
I'm not sure the same was being said last year. My recollection was that most of the talk centred on New Approach being very good, unless you're interpreting lack of comment about the Ballydoyle horses as tantamount to them being poor my omission?

Just out of interest, what did you have for Henrythenavigator this time last year? Did your figure mark him out as better than his bare form might have appeared or did his performance come as a surprise?

Footstepsinthesand was the one that caught me out, I remember thinking 'who?' come the Guineas build up. Not a great place to be!
 
Off hand I can't remember, but he was a weird one, and not dissimilar to Intense Focus in that he ran a fast Coventry 89.64+ (faster than normal) and then slipped away on unfavourable ground. A figure of 90 in June is more than respectable, although Natagora had put up a much faster time at Longchamp in the same month that had me wondering whether I hadn't encountered a rogue such was her level of dominace.

Henry's bare figures as the season developed wouldn't necessarily have marked him down, but he would have been considered a 'sleeper' as he clearly ran a fast mark under certain conditions that he never really faced again. As such you'd have been mindful that if he encountered them again, he might very well spring back to form and would need to be considered. As it happens the 40/1 about him the week before Newmarket became too tempting, and I decided to side with him as my second selection having already taken 85 about Khaldun

The annoying one that ties in with Henry's early season form was Saorise Abu who I had one fast figure for and then some poorer ones, she of course beat him at 25/1 when she re-encountered similar ground conditions but by then I'd given up on her :mad:

To some extent it's one of the additional factors of a speed rating in that you need to be appreciative of the conditions that were prevalent when a figure was run, as following the bare figure alone can mislead. The other related issue concerns the way a race was run, but this is probably most apparent in novice/ juvenile hurdlers where there is a whole host of visually impressive winners who've prevailed in jog and sprint affairs and they usually go to Cheltenham as hyped up hot pots. The festival races however are normally run lickety spit, and the horse that's looked good accelerating off a moderate pace is suddenly taken out of their comfort zone for the first time and asked to run in a fashion which has hitherto been alien to them. As such they're going into new territory and there is a veritable graveyard of such failure.

As I recall Henry was in my top 20 but quite low down the list as other horses had gone past him, due largely to him not encountering the ground that he'd had when registering his early season high water mark.. He was the floater in the pack, and to some extent I'm far from convinced that Intense Focus isn't of a similar ilk (although at this stage I'd suggest not as good). He appears to have a ground preference, but I'd be surprised to see him succeeding where Teofilo and New Approach (for different reasons) didn't.
 
As Henry's form deteriorated last year, I seem to recall Clive writing a thread 'Henrythenavigator' - 'has he lost his way?' I duly dug out my contribution to it to see if I'd contradicted myself, and to my surprise I think I'm reasonably consistent as hindsight and subsequent events can all to easily lead to us having lapse of convenient memory. It would appear that you had his performances down to the ground incidentally, and have been duly vindicated, but I wrote the following;

"My own figures suggest he's pretty well run the same time/ speedrating as he did in winning the Coventry, (about a head faster) which means he's run about 2.5L's - 3.5L's below what I'd have expected him to based on normal 2yo progression in pattern races.

If I was being harsh I'd say he's stood still, but circa 3L's can easily be accounted for by the ground conditions and draw, so I'm more inclined to give Henry the benefit and say he's probably progressing in line with what I'd expect (even though you're having to take a bit of it on trust). I do believe however, that there are others ahead of him anyway".
 
re todays Dewhurst

a simple comparison can be made most years between the Dewhurst and Challenge stakes

Teofilo beat the Challenge Stakes by 0.04 sec
New Approach beat the Challenge Stakes by 0.27 sec
Intense Focus slower than Challenge stakes by 0.85 second

other 2yo speed figures I've done this year are consistently slower than the last few years

it seems that this years best 2yo's are on average around 0.75 seconds per mile slower than the last few years best
 
Well, the trials next April should be more interesting than usual.
I suspect the 2000 Guineas winner may not have been seen in a Group race yet.

So do I, and my suspected 'dark horse' is being kept so dark he isn't even entered in the race - though his owner told me (in confidence) two months ago he was going to win it :cool:
Money isn't an object so maybe he'll be supplemented!! Meanwhile I'd quite like to get a bet on... LOL!
 
re todays Dewhurst

a simple comparison can be made most years between the Dewhurst and Challenge stakes

Teofilo beat the Challenge Stakes by 0.04 sec
New Approach beat the Challenge Stakes by 0.27 sec
Intense Focus slower than Challenge stakes by 0.85 second

other 2yo speed figures I've done this year are consistently slower than the last few years

it seems that this years best 2yo's are on average around 0.75 seconds per mile slower than the last few years best

I'd agree that they seem to be slow this year, but there are of course dangers associated with simply taking one race against another, as it's not always clear whose ability it reflects. For instance;

Le Vie Dei Colori beat Sir Percy 1.18 secs (he would of course go on to finish second in the Guineas and win the Derby)
Just James beat Milk it Mick 0.54 secs
Nayyir beat Tout Seul 1.30 secs
Munir beat Rock of Gibraltar 1.20 secs (he would of course go on and win the Guineas and just about every other race he contested - Distant Valley also beat RoG 0.17sec in the Rockfel)
Last Resort beat Tobugg 1.59 secs (he would also go on and win the Guineas)
Susu beat Distant Music 2.64 secs, although interestingly so did Lahan by 0.05 secs in the Rockfel who would of course go on and win the fillies Guineas whilst thrid home that year, Imagine, would win the Oaks.

Don't get me wrong, Intense Focus wouldn't be my idea of the winner, (I doubt he'd win if it run again today) but he's ahead of some decent company.

New Approach +0.27
Shamardal +0.06
Teofilo +0.04
Milk it Mick -0.54
Intense Focus -0.85
Rock of Gibraltar -1.20
Tout Seul -1.30
Sir Percy -1.18
Tobugg -1.59
Distant Music -2.64

It's actually set me off lookign at the Rockfel in honesty as a line of enquiry. I was very happy that last years winner was shite, as she was absolutely out with the washing on the clock and not really putting up a listed performance, but thsi year has me scratching my head, base don the proximity to the Dewhurst winner. In recent times Distant Valley and Lahan have both run quicker than the Dewhurst winner, where as Sayedah got very close. Lahaleeb straddles Speciosa and Finscael Beo so would be within a kind of striking range of sorts
 
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Intense Focus gets a 118 RPR and Topspeed. I think, on RPRs, that the Middle Park is their highest rated 2yo race. Makes a change!
 
It was interesting to me as I've posted elsewhere, that four of the first six in the Rockfel, inc the first three home were all having their EIGHTH race of the season. I think that's a hard season for any 2yr old filly esp in the cold season we've had, and I wonder how many will train on

What's the usual number of previous races a typical 1000 Guineas winner has had as a 2yr old?
 
The four figures i have for Mastercraftsman are as follows;
(The figure in brackets is the going correction)

Railway Stakes - 88.31 (+1.78 - fast side of good)
Phoenix Stakes - 88.95 (+1.53 - good)
National Stakes - 94.13 (-12.48 - very heavy)
Prix Lagadere - 96.20 (+3.65 - Firm G/F in places)

It's a progressive profile, and is just about on the edge of what would be considered notable in a normal year. Anything above 95 as a rule of thumb is notable, and a horse that beats 100 is very noteworthy (you get about 2 or 3 in a year normally that beat 100, although this year I haven't found a single one). On this figure he's run to form and pretty well to expectation, as a 2yo normally improves about 2.5pts with each race in group company, which means he'd have been expected to get about 98 by Longchamp using the Railways stakes as a baseline. If you use the national stakes as a baseline then he'd have been expected to reach 96.63 in France, and hasn't missed out on that projection by more than half a length. The Lagadere was by far the fastest race he'd been pitched into to date, and it is worth considering (imho) that the first time he was asked to do this, he was found wanting.

First of all, cracking post!

With regards to Mastercraftsman, I reckon he's probably better than his last two runs indicate. O'Brien was very concerned before the National Stakes that the heavy ground might just find him out, though he battled on well of course. While he clearly acted on the ground that day, I would be of the opinion (primarily based on his action) that he is a better horse on a sound surface. Were he to meet Shaweel (who was only beaten around a length yesterday) again, I reckon he would beat him by further than he did at the Curragh.

As for his last run, I'm willing to accept the view that the Lagardere was one race too many tbh. Though he was a fairly lengthy break between the Phoenix Stakes and the National Stakes, he did have a fairly hard race at the Curragh. Given that it was his first run back from a break, he could conceivably have 'bounced' at Longchamp. Whatever the reason, he didn't looked to be struggling a long way out. Though he's more of a galloping type that makes a sustained bid rather than an animal that canters all over the field then blitzes them with a turn of foot, he's proven that he can travel off a strong gallop in the Phoenix Stakes (over 6 furlongs as well).

Given his ideal conditions- a strong gallop and a sound surface- he has proven himself a very smart prospect IMO and has to be rated on form as Ballydoyle's first string for the Guineas next, though all of the vibes seem to suggest otherwise.

I'm surprised your figure for the Phoenix is so low BTW- he didn't beat much but I seem to remember they want a good gallop that day, though I can't be arsed to check! :p

On a completely unrelated note, I reckon this is the longest contribution I have made to this forum.. quite sad really! :D
 
The worry I have about Mastercraftsman is whether the Lagadere was more than just a case of him being over the top; that the National Stakes may have left a more permanent mark on him.
 
In fairness to Murtagh, he gave him a brilliant ride in the circumstances which would seemingly give hope that it didn't. Time will tell I suppose..
 
Thanks, Gareth.

Sorry for the late reply & thanks for this! :)

Here you go Michael:

RP Longchamp Standards

Distance (y) : Time (s)
1100 : 56.8
1540 : 80
1650 : 87.3
1760 : 97.4
1870 : 104
1980 : 110.5
2035 : 113
2090 : 117.2
2145 : 119
2200 : 123.9
2310 : 130
2420 : 137
2640 : 151.5
2750 : 157
2860 : 163.2
2970 : 171
3080 : 179
3300 : 191.4
3410 : 198.5
3520 : 206
4400 : 261
 
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