Newmarket July Meeting
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Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Damning with faint praise.
EC1
On a break
we had this discussion bfore Euro...might have been long distance G1's on that occasion..can't remember
You seem to expect 125-130 rated G1 hosses at this trip like we have at longer trips ..which isn't going to happen that often seeing as very good sprinting horses generally only go sprinting when they drop back in trip if they are deemed not up to it at longer trips. The general sprinting population aren't top notchers are they? Muharaar being the classic example of decent drop backer .Sprinting G1 figures are never going to be as high as middle trip horses
The average rating for a sprinting G1 winner must be 7/8lb or so below middle distance G1's..thats just a fact of life. Look at slade power and sole power..2 of the best sprinters from recent years..neither higher than a 120 rating...Sole P 118...Slade P 120....but they don't have to be..as most near top sprinters are only around the 110-113 mark
todays race was as good as anything around sprinting wise...not really sure what you are looking for tbh
You seem to expect 125-130 rated G1 hosses at this trip like we have at longer trips ..which isn't going to happen that often seeing as very good sprinting horses generally only go sprinting when they drop back in trip if they are deemed not up to it at longer trips. The general sprinting population aren't top notchers are they? Muharaar being the classic example of decent drop backer .Sprinting G1 figures are never going to be as high as middle trip horses
The average rating for a sprinting G1 winner must be 7/8lb or so below middle distance G1's..thats just a fact of life. Look at slade power and sole power..2 of the best sprinters from recent years..neither higher than a 120 rating...Sole P 118...Slade P 120....but they don't have to be..as most near top sprinters are only around the 110-113 mark
todays race was as good as anything around sprinting wise...not really sure what you are looking for tbh
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EC1
On a break
Muhaarar ran a speed figure after pace mark up of 118 on my calcs today..thats similar to other top sprinters of recent years.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
I was kind of expecting more from the sprinters at the start of the season with Limato, Tiggy Wiggy, Muthmir and Anthem Alexander all new to the scene but it's ended up with the same drab fair, handicappers like Tropics almost winning Group 1's. I won't make the same expectation mistake again.
EC1
On a break
There was a classic example of why sprinting division is devoid of mid 120's hosses this year with a horse like Tiggy Wiggy. She was so fast as a 2yo that IF the slant in horse racing was towards sprinting and not the guineas trip she could have been top sprinter by far this year. But they don't think like that..real money is at further...they want a guineas. I'd drop her back in the nunthorpe if she were mine..but they have probably trained the sprint out of her by now trying to stretch her out.
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EC1
On a break
post crossed
well its the game isn't it?. When Tiggy Wiggy was winning last year i doubt very much if connections were saying..crikey we can mop up the sprints next year..they have a great sprinter..and want a guineas horse..no one in a camp that wants guineas winners is arsed with having sprinters unless its last resort.
Tropics is better than a handicapper Euro,,ran a 116 at windsor..thats not a sprint handicapper its a near on G1 sprinter...whereas if it were a miler it would be a G3/G2 horse with that rating. Thats the difference between sprint division and further distancers.
just drop your expectations...G2 miler/mile halfer = G1 sprinter re ratings
well its the game isn't it?. When Tiggy Wiggy was winning last year i doubt very much if connections were saying..crikey we can mop up the sprints next year..they have a great sprinter..and want a guineas horse..no one in a camp that wants guineas winners is arsed with having sprinters unless its last resort.
Tropics is better than a handicapper Euro,,ran a 116 at windsor..thats not a sprint handicapper its a near on G1 sprinter...whereas if it were a miler it would be a G3/G2 horse with that rating. Thats the difference between sprint division and further distancers.
just drop your expectations...G2 miler/mile halfer = G1 sprinter re ratings
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That old song being sung again, it never seems to lose its appeal.
The fact is that the sprint division these days is of a far higher class, and far more competitive, than it's ever been.
Yesteryear champions like Right Boy, Tin Whistle and Be Friendly would just be one of the crowd today.
If the level of sprinting were as low as you claim, then we'd expect to see the so-called "class" horses just rocking up and putting these "handicappers" in their places.
It's not as though winning a Group 1 over 5 or 6f would detract from a horse's stud value!
EC1
On a break
would think stud value is better if horse wins a guineas though..and connecetions will always go guineas route..that has always been the same..lots of good sprinters in past were stretched out..Marwell types.
I would doubt the sprinting division is much different to what it was 30 years ago..G1 sprinters around the 118/120 mark..same as today. Then every now and again you get your super sprinters like Lochsong..Habibiti..and the peerless Dayjur. It certainly isn't low comparatively imo. It may be even higher as you say..but personally think its just similar. People tend to only remember the really good sprinters from the past and so believe that lots of sprinters were mid 120 hosses just because a few were really good..then they look in the present and it all looks mediocre..when in fact if you had looked around in Dayjur's pomp ..apart from him the main population of sprinters was probably the same as today.
There is no doubt that the sprinting division could have higher rated hosses running in it..Tiggy Wiggy is heartbreaking for a start..probably could have been a near Dayjur type on the speed figures she threw out as a 2yo..but what has happened with her is the same has has happened since God were a lad..better pickings higher up the distance chain. Thats how the game has always worked..connections want to see how far a horse can stay as a 3yo. Some trainers try that once..realise and then give it up..others just keep on banging potential sprinting talent at 7+8f race after race..until its probably to late to train em for sprinting again.
we will have same complaint about quality when leger comes round...again..there is no prestige in winning long distance races in the main..so you are unlikely to be getting 125/130 rated stayers on a regular basis..all the quality is middle distance..hence higher rated G1 winners there
it doesn't bother me because i know the level of expectation at each distance..so appreciate good hosses at all distances..you just cannot say that a G1 should be 125/130 at all distances and if they don't hit that height they sh1te..its not so..as its not feasible.
I would doubt the sprinting division is much different to what it was 30 years ago..G1 sprinters around the 118/120 mark..same as today. Then every now and again you get your super sprinters like Lochsong..Habibiti..and the peerless Dayjur. It certainly isn't low comparatively imo. It may be even higher as you say..but personally think its just similar. People tend to only remember the really good sprinters from the past and so believe that lots of sprinters were mid 120 hosses just because a few were really good..then they look in the present and it all looks mediocre..when in fact if you had looked around in Dayjur's pomp ..apart from him the main population of sprinters was probably the same as today.
There is no doubt that the sprinting division could have higher rated hosses running in it..Tiggy Wiggy is heartbreaking for a start..probably could have been a near Dayjur type on the speed figures she threw out as a 2yo..but what has happened with her is the same has has happened since God were a lad..better pickings higher up the distance chain. Thats how the game has always worked..connections want to see how far a horse can stay as a 3yo. Some trainers try that once..realise and then give it up..others just keep on banging potential sprinting talent at 7+8f race after race..until its probably to late to train em for sprinting again.
we will have same complaint about quality when leger comes round...again..there is no prestige in winning long distance races in the main..so you are unlikely to be getting 125/130 rated stayers on a regular basis..all the quality is middle distance..hence higher rated G1 winners there
it doesn't bother me because i know the level of expectation at each distance..so appreciate good hosses at all distances..you just cannot say that a G1 should be 125/130 at all distances and if they don't hit that height they sh1te..its not so..as its not feasible.
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EC1
On a break
just having a look at some old July Cup winners...i would imagine Stravbinsky would be classed as a good winner..Euro you would have been a little impressed by his win i feel..well he ran the same speed figure as Muhaarar. Which sort of tells you we aren't seeing rubbish.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
The last July Cup that excited me was the one Elnadim won. Probably because that's the only time I've ever backed the winner.
I didn't bet in yesterday's though.
I didn't bet in yesterday's though.
archie
Senior Jockey
While I generally agree with your argument, EC, if you're going to give a shout for Habibti, I can't let it go without a mention of Chief Singer if only for old times sake. Without El Gran Senor he'd have been the best miler of his era and, as this shows, a very good sprinter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3hNqKW76NQ
Rated at 131 at his best.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3hNqKW76NQ
Rated at 131 at his best.
EC1
On a break
oh i agree..very good horse..but i haven't tried to mention all the good sprinters over 40 years. I'm talking about the general standard..which i think is par now as it was then.
sprinters have always been of a certain level..you will get the occasional really exceptional one..but on average your top sprinter will be 7/8 lbs behind you top middle horses..on average