Not allowed to bet on same horse for guineas and oaks in multiples?

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A couple of months ago I had a few spare quid in my pocket and whilst waiting for a train I wandered into Bet Fred, placed an each way Yankee on Al Wukair (2000) Rhodedendron (1000 & oaks) Eminent (Derby). Went in to collect today to be told that I had no returns as I couldn't bet on the same horse in guineas and oaks. The guy then phoned up and they offered to settle on doubles. My argument is that at worst surely the bet on the oaks becomes void and then you pay out on the place treble?

Not talking about a lot of money here, it is the principle. Anyone point me to any terms and conditions that I can't see or confirm whether they are right and I am wrong? Cheers
 
Would make sense to void the oaks bet and let the rest stand.

This is a standard example of related contingency though - one event affects the probability of the other event so you aren't allowed to combine them. Bookies will often offer a special price on a high profile horse to do the Newmarket/Epsom double, but the price is always lower than the double.
 
Don't know if this is of any help!

From Betfred's T&Cs, this the only reference I could see for related contingencies.

I tried a copy & paste but obviously it hasn't worked, I'll try again.

You could try www.betfred.com/terms

8. Related Contingencies
With the exception of scorecasts and wincasts (and any other bet offered) where a specific price is offered and the outcome is related and dependent where one selection influences the outcome of the others, i.e. Manchester United to win in 90 minutes and Manchester United to win 2-1 is not permitted in a double. Any such bet accepted in error will be settled with the full stake being placed on the outcome with the biggest price attached to it from the ‘related bet’.




















 
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Or you could request they honour the bet at sp for the final leg? Surely that's no different than reinvesting you winnings on the final leg which would be a pretty normal thing to do.
 
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No way the Oaks bet should be void. They should at the very least settle the place double at a special price.
 
8. Related Contingencies

With the exception of scorecasts and wincasts (and any other bet offered) where a specific price is offered and the outcome is related and dependent where one selection influences the outcome of the others, i.e. Manchester United to win in 90 minutes and Manchester United to win 2-1 is not permitted in a double. Any such bet accepted in error will be settled with the full stake being placed on the outcome with the biggest price attached to it from the ‘related bet’.

This rule is bordering on retarded.
 
How is this a reelated bet anyway. If a horse wins the 2.00 this afternoon, how is it more likely to win the 2.00 tomorrow if it was entered?
 
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dvds2000 said:
How is this a reelated bet anyway. If a horse wins the 2.00 this afternoon, how is it more likely to win the 2.00 tomorrow if it was entered?
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The chances of Wings of Eagles winning the Irish Derby are much greater than anyone had appreciated before he won on Saturday.
 
dvds2000 said:
How is this a reelated bet anyway. If a horse wins the 2.00 this afternoon, how is it more likely to win the 2.00 tomorrow if it was entered?
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The rule was introduced years ago after the bookmakers got caught on a Cricket team winning the two county competitions in doubles. However while I agree with the rule in some cases they have stretched it to cover things it just shouldn't cover.
 
did something similar with the same firm a few years ago when i doubled kingman to win his trial (greenham iirc) and the 2000 guineas. ended up with a 20/1 docket on him as he went into race a 6/4 fav. we all know what happened but i wonder now if they would have honoured it anyway.
 
JamesRB said:
did something similar with the same firm a few years ago when i doubled kingman to win his trial (greenham iirc) and the 2000 guineas. ended up with a 20/1 docket on him as he went into race a 6/4 fav. we all know what happened but i wonder now if they would have honoured it anyway.
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They would have paid you a special price.
 
SlimChance said:
The rule was introduced years ago after the bookmakers got caught on a Cricket team winning the two county competitions in doubles. However while I agree with the rule in some cases they have stretched it to cover things it just shouldn't cover.
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When Clement Freud was first elected as an MP-he was a big priced outsider of 3 initially.He hammered into the bookies and did some multiples with colleagues who were canvassing well.That was 40 plus years ago and the reason why no sane bookmaker will offer multiple bets on general elections.
 
LUKE said:
When Clement Freud was first elected as an MP-he was a big priced outsider of 3 initially.He hammered into the bookies and did some multiples with colleagues who were canvassing well.That was 40 plus years ago and the reason why no sane bookmaker will offer multiple bets on general elections.
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Multiples are so underrated by supposed expert gamblers. Getting overpriced horses in multiples as a way of life for me.
 
SlimChance said:
They would have paid you a special price.
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What do you mean by a special price Slim?

Are you referring to a special price they offered for the double before the first event, or are you saying in this instance a special price is something they essentially make up?
 
Maruco said:
What do you mean by a special price Slim?

Are you referring to a special price they offered for the double before the first event, or are you saying in this instance a special price is something they essentially make up?
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Yes. Essentially they will give you the price of the first event multiplied by what the (guessed) new price will be if the selection wins the first event.
 
Grey said:
The chances of Wings of Eagles winning the Irish Derby are much greater than anyone had appreciated before he won on Saturday.
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The inverse of this is what troubles me about related contingencies. Say I had WoE at 40/1 and 10/1 English and Irish Derbies and he was beaten a furlong on Saturday and went to 66/1 for the Curragh race. Would I be able to ask for the bet to be voided?
 
an capall said:
The inverse of this is what troubles me about related contingencies. Say I had WoE at 40/1 and 10/1 English and Irish Derbies and he was beaten a furlong on Saturday and went to 66/1 for the Curragh race. Would I be able to ask for the bet to be voided?
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A better argument is that Al Wukair winning the Guineas makes it more unlikely (however small) that Eminent would win the Derby.
 
Part time punter said:
Cheers all, appreciate the related contingency. I'll have another go, I was bloody livid this morning based on the principle!!!
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First thing is do not assume the shop manager is honest. Call head office and make sure they have or did originally VOID your bet.

I find that strange and it could be the shop manager is pulling a fast one (Wouldn't be the first or the last time) Obviously you can't just accuse him but is you just accept what he is saying you could ask yourself if he could be pocketing the winning part.
You are withing your rights to at least have it confirmed as you don't know the manager from Adam

"When the same horse is taken to win two or more races in AntePost doubles, trebles and accumulators special reduced odds will be offered" That is common knowledge with all firms

There is no time limit to when they can make that offer. In other words if they couldn't get a hold of you at the time they spotted it they should make the offer when you go to collect.

The shop manager could also be trying to cover his own ass. He is responsible for missing it as he would be asked to sign it off even if he never took it personally.

If he could get you to settle for your money back he gets a little feather in his cap.

as I say whether it's 10quid or 100,000 it is an absolute must you contact the head office in a dispute
 
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Thanks all, after two phone calls I've now got them to agree to settle all four place trebles. Not a big amount of. Money but better than having a losing bet.
 
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