Offshore Bookmakers

betsmate said:
Without trying to address some of the crackpot "everything would be better if it was nationalised" theories on here, just some observations:

A tote monopoly would cost me (off the top of my head):

- the opportunity to "beat a bookie". That is the sport for many.
- a huge overround (compared for example Betfair commission on a 101ish% book)
- the atmosphere of the ring
- the loss of any opportunity of a sub-100% book.
- the opportunity to benefit from individual error of judgement.
- any loss leader promotions
- incentives driven by competition, i.e. extra e/w places
- choice of service (i.e. personal preference, interface, payment method)

And that is before you even look at the loss of innovation or efficiency caused by the removal of competition.

Others have made the case for the benefit of a monopoly. It is far from the Utopia that many would paint it as though.

My reasoning is that where there is choice, you at least have a chance of finding what you want. Where there is no choice, you had better hope that that is all that you'll ever want.
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I completely agree with all of this. There would be far more moaning if we had a monopoly. It is never a good idea to put all the power in one place, nor is it a good idea to stifle competition if you want a market to flourish.

We'd all end up betting at SP, which for most people (Me included, particularly as someone who bets win only most of the time) would be a nightmare.
 
If a free market tend towards efficiency, and most (all?) on-course bookmakers are hedging on exchanges and effectively acting as a mere proxy, at which point do they become surplus to requirements? Do they continue to exist only because of the relative lack of availability of exchanges on-course? How can this be justified?

(Personally I've always liked nipping around the betting ring looking for the best price, but that's just me).
 
Given the dwindling numbers on course I would say it is already happening.

Betfair booths on course are surely not far away.
 
I think it's only going to be a matter of time before the Ring will just fade away, surely the only people betting there now are die-hard technophobes? If I go racing nowadays (I haven't been at all this year) I use Betfair Mobile, most of the time, with the occasional bet in the Ring if the market is moving too fast.
 
Then as Galileo has previously suggested, like all other industries it should have both private and governmental interest.
 
Aragorn said:
We'd all end up betting at SP, which for most people (Me included, particularly as someone who bets win only most of the time) would be a nightmare.
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But the SP would be a true reflection of the weight of public money and not necessarily the true odds against the horse(s). If Joe Public gets it wrong - and he usually does otherwise bookies would've gone out of business - then you're getting value odds about your fancy if you go against Joe P. And that's the only way to make money out of betting.

As a younger punter, I too used to get a buzz out of dashing around the bookies lines trying to get the best odds. Then I realised that more than half the time the SP beat the bookies I was betting with since I could only afford the 'silver ring'. Once I started getting my bets on before I went racing and saved myelf what had by now become the hassle of dashing around the bookies, I could enjoy the day a lot more. More time to look at the horses (not that that ever did me any good!) and chat with mates etc.
 
Desert Orchid said:
But the SP would be a true reflection of the weight of public money and not necessarily the true odds against the horse(s). If Joe Public gets it wrong - and he usually does otherwise bookies would've gone out of business - then you're getting value odds about your fancy if you go against Joe P. And that's the only way to make money out of betting.
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Probably the best advice ever posted on this forum.
 
Would you buy something from a shop without knowing it's price?

You are thereby hoping that the public don't back your horse, otherwise you will end up with a poor value bet.
 
It is the same except with the Tote vs. the bookmakers you have a choice in the matter. With a Tote monopoly there'd be limited choice.

We'd also likely not have any multiple bets - yankee's, trixie's, lucky bets, round-the-clocks, canadian's, heinz's, goliath's etc. and the daily "treble" would end up being on three races ie. the first three at Newton Abbott or the last two at Catterick for a double.
 
True, and I don't bet at SP either. But the SP market is essentially no different in it's function from the Tote return market.

Are there any figures for what percentage of turnover are SP bets, and which are not?
 
As this thread was in concern of overseas bookmakers surely a tote monopoly avoids all bookmakers taking their profits abroad. If that were to happen British racing will be supplying the product and technically we will see no benefit from the money generated through the bookies??/
 
Desert Orchid said:
But the SP would be a true reflection of the weight of public money and not necessarily the true odds against the horse(s). If Joe Public gets it wrong - and he usually does otherwise bookies would've gone out of business - then you're getting value odds about your fancy if you go against Joe P. And that's the only way to make money out of betting.
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Only if the price after the massive Tote takeout was greater than the actual true odds. If is wasn't, then the only guarantee is you won't make money out of betting.
 
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Hamm said:
Would you buy something from a shop without knowing it's price?

You are thereby hoping that the public don't back your horse, otherwise you will end up with a poor value bet.
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It's simple, wait until the last possible moment so you now the relative strength of the pool then join a massive queue... :blink:
 
Toobe said:
As this thread was in concern of overseas bookmakers surely a tote monopoly avoids all bookmakers taking their profits abroad. If that were to happen British racing will be supplying the product and technically we will see no benefit from the money generated through the bookies??/
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Toobe, I take it you meant "surely a tote monopoly means all bookmakers taking their profits abroad" and you're correct. Because it's a tote monopoly here (and that would require a change in EU rules) doesn't mean we'll all be betting with the tote. I'd imagine most online backers would be betting offshore.
 
The authorities can only license so much - US racing has a Tote monopoly yet there are markets up on Betfair and if someone saw fit, as many of the big firms do at the moment it would be possible to bet on races at EP's if firms were willing to offer them.
 
Desert Orchid said:
But the SP would be a true reflection of the weight of public money and not necessarily the true odds against the horse(s). If Joe Public gets it wrong - and he usually does otherwise bookies would've gone out of business - then you're getting value odds about your fancy if you go against Joe P. And that's the only way to make money out of betting.
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Oh, and you don't think that - as in the the SP - you'd have heavy money wading in with the precise objective of manipulating the prices? If you think the returns will be fantastic and you're only betting against 'joe public', you'll be mistaken.

As for the previous guff you put - YOU made it personal, not me. You repeated throughout your post 'who gives a shit?' and 'tough shit' in direct relation to the question of the thousands of people directly and indirectly involved in the industry who would lose their jobs if YOUR suggestions were implemented. If you weren't intending to put backs up you should have thought before making such a dismissive and smug "I'm alright Jack" post. How would you feel if I made such dismissive and downright rude remarks about your livelihood, or better still, strongly advocated that moves should be implemented that would make you unemployed? You can bet your bottom dollar that were I to suggest - no! strongly advocate - that teacher's pay be reviewed in lieu of being paid pro-rata (since you get far more paid holidays than any other career out there) or if I were to bang on that teacher's cushy pension schemes should be reviewed you'd get sniffy right away. So, be fair.

I'm also entitled to my opinion that your views are not informed ones, yes, partly since you have no working knowledge of the industries involved and so far as I can see you go racing very little. So, forgive me for believing that you follow racing through the racing channels, racing forums and the Racing Post rather than through direct experience. Were I to make such comments as you have about teaching politics you'd jump on me straight away and tell me how ignorant I am.
 
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It would be expected for a politics teacher to jump on you for your opinion, as the basis of it really is about opinion and policy making through debate and arguement which can sometimes get heated. The art is to keep your cool when all others have lost theirs!!!!!:D
 
What I am doing - yes, seriously - is having a go at someone for making a smug, 'I'm alright Jack' post on the general and recurrent theme of "I don't give a shit if you lose your job, I still think my idea is great", and better still, then trying to back out and say that's not what he meant at all!

If you're going to make such a post, at least stand by it rather than trying to backtrack and get arsey when people take you up on it.
 
Irish Stamp said:
We'd also likely not have any multiple bets - yankee's, trixie's, lucky bets, round-the-clocks, canadian's, heinz's, goliath's etc.
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Is that a bad thing??

In any case, don't equivalents of these bets exist in other countries where they have a tote monopoly? How possible is it to back a multiple with the exchanges?
 
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