P.I.G.S.

S

Soary Stars

At the Start
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
648
Greece anyway.

Should the Greeks get baled out again or should they sink or swim by their own efforts.
They're rioting in the kitchen when they've finished the nice big cake.
 
Grey said:
Not exactly what the EU is supposed to be about.
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No? I didn't know.
Have a big cake, eat it all & while you don't do any work, then get your EU to buy your food and tidy up everything for you.
Of course so simple. Ah to be Greek, very clever people.
 
The best things in life are simple. Thinking makes simplistic. Learn from the Greeks!
They'll take your money, very simply!
 
Do I have to spell it out?
Greece joined the EU back when, with an expressed condition that they meet some target of book-keeping nationally.
They made it by the skin of their furry teeth.
Except they didn't. The books were cooked. That's a matter of record.

They've lived the high life for the last several years; they're bust. No money. Skint.
They were a while back & they are now.
They were bailed out then to the tune of 100BILLION.
Now they need another 100BILLION.

Where's that coming from? There is no magic money tree at the top of mount Olympus.
Taxes. Not Greek taxes, either - that's not how a bale out goes.


The EU / EEC is another story. Look to its birth - fathered by German repentance and work ethic, mothered by the French ... farmers, who have done splendidly out of it, les petits whatevers.

It's a mess unless you're a banker or a politician or used to be a French farmer!

Remain cheerful, though as it doesn't last much longer.

:)
 
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When you come out with the sentence "Thinking makes simplistic" you sure as hell have to spell something out! :rolleyes:
 
Well, no - ask Grey to: his was brief to the edge of pointlessness.

What do you do - perceive a situation - simple - or think up stuff & trot out thoughts to masquerade as reasoning. That's what I call 'simplistic'.

Greece is stuffed & doesn't like it.
 
Greece joined the EU back when, with an expressed condition that they meet some target of book-keeping nationally.
They made it by the skin of their furry teeth.
Except they didn't. The books were cooked. That's a matter of record.
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I think you're referring to when Greece joinined the euro, rather than the EU.

I'm not sure whether it's a matter of record, but everybody, European Commission and European Council, Germans included, knew at the time that the Greek figures were doctored.
 
It is as much a bailout for pension funds and banks (many of them German) who have bought Greek debt as it is of Greece itself.

If all things go to plan, it will be predominately paid for by Greek taxes (and German and French) but not by these funds or banks. The aim is that they all get paid 100c to the euro.

I don't think that is possible.
 
its a shambles. where is greece going to generate the growth from to get on an even keel whilst taxes have to rise? Its the same old thing again. All the rapid growth and "economic miracles" some EU states were supposedly experiencing were simply "too good to be true" and as ever, it was.
 
its a shambles.
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No argument there.

The euro was always a political as well as an economic project, and those who benefit from it most, the Germans, Dutch, French and other strong Member State economies need to face up to that. Pretending that it is simply a common currency area, and that no transfers between Member States should be necessary, is delusional.
 
AS usual the ordinary citizens get loaded with the debt of corrupt and irresponsible Governments and Bankers. The Greeks just got a worse case of it then anyone else.
 
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So naive...

The "ordinary citizens" of Greece (and elsewhere) have grabbed ridiculously generous pension and retirement rights and avoided tax on a massive scale too. "ordinary citizens" valso ran up masses of speculative credit driven by the belief that the unsustainable gravy train was going to continue for ever too

The bankers are at fault of course but citcizens that buy into goverments that buy votes by sky high public spending are every bit as responsible. As we are seeing here with the laughable strikes due fron the public sector who have creamed it during the past ten years or so.

Their strikes have zero public support in the real economy and Cameron can face them down with plenty of backing, In fact he should go in harder i believe
 
I agree with almost everything that Clive has said. Greek (and Irish) people had a great run for ages, and should pay heavily for the excess. We were stupid enough to vote in politicians who were inept, actively championing low regulation and shouting down dissenters. We get what we deserve. But banks who lent to Irish and Greeks should also get what they deserve. I don't see how default in these peripheral countries isn't the right thing to do. All of this is just kicking the can down the road.

where is greece going to generate the growth from to get on an even keel whilst taxes have to rise?
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Why doesn't it borrow heavily, both publicly and privately, to pay for an inflated public sector and imported goods and services on which tax can be avoided? Although this produces little, hopefully the multiplier effect from this economic activity will produce enough revenue for the exchequer (in spite of the holes in the tax net) to pay back the borrowings.
 
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Reason is that the rates they would have to borrow at are astromonical. The bonds would be(i assume) at very high rates. This is really what its all about. It would be like trying to build a business by maxing out your credit cards. It can work (I know someone well whos minted who started that way) but its difficult.

Once they are seen to get the overspending under control then i would assume that rates would come down
 
I was trying (and failing) to be funny. Check this out. 2007 tax rates.

total-tax-revenue-in-EU27-2007.jpg
 
I did wonder what the hell you were on about....

Thats interesting... Didnt quite realise that the rates were so low.
 
August, 2007:
Greece has the most comprehensive mandatory pension scheme among rich countries, according to a report from the OECD. Future retirees can expect to receive pension benefits equivalent to 96% of their pre-retirement earnings. Workers in the Netherlands can look forward to a retirement that is nearly as well-cushioned. The projected entitlements are for a typical worker entering the system today who retires after a full career. They are based on schemes that are required by law, whether public or private. Mandatory benefits in Britain, Japan, Germany and America fall short of the OECD average. Workers in these countries will have to rely more on their private pension savings to live well in retirement.

Ah, the good old days, eh.

February, 2010:
It is not just that German politicians and newspaper commentators are really cross about the idea of bailing out the profligate Greek government. It is striking how often their annoyance is expressed in angry comparisons of the Greek and German retirement pension rules. Even the news that the Greek government was planning to raise the legal retirement age from 61 to 63 as part of swingeing austerity measures seems to have been like a red rag to a bull in Germany, which not long ago increased its legal age from 65 to 67.
 
Greek(and Irish) people had a great run for ages, and should pay heavily for the excess. We were stupid enough to vote in politicians who were inept, actively championing low regulation and shouting down dissenters. We get what we deserve. But banks who lent to Irish and Greeks should also get what they deserve. I don't see how default in these peripheral countries isn't the right thing to do. All of this is just kicking the can down the road.
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Bar, is it reasonable to think that the electorate should all be economists ? I don't think so. We vote people in to form a Government (In Ireland and Europe) and run the show while the rest of us go about our day to day. We expect them to make fuck ups and perhaps their forecasts for the economy might be a little optimistic or pessimistic depending on the Governments agenda at the time. People than go about their day to day in the environment that the Government has created or allowed to develope. Most people lived comfortably in that environment. Plenty over did it.

However no one expected them to oversee the bankrupting of the Country and the Banking systems collapse and than to pass on that private debt to private Citizens. The notion that somehow everyone is to blame for simply living is not a runner. Sure plenty where irresponsible and should and will pay (hopefully) but most were not. I suspect the same is the case in Greece, they didn't all own 2 houses and have 4 holidays a year etc. yet they find themselves Bankrupt .
 
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