Phil Smith - Arkle
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Gearoid
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Im confused. Why does Arkle not already have one?
rorydelargy
At the Start
He needs another run apparently.
Yeah a realistic one!
Grasshopper
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:lol:
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
The "high class" horses Arkle beat or almost beat giving vast amounts of weight to have been vastly overrated and were placed/won Gold Cup's in really bad post-Arkle years. They probably rated Stalbridge Colonist as a Neptune Collonges when really, he was probably more of a Harbour Pilot.
G
Gearoid
Guest
Ive had a look on google. Looks to be like they are closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.
Desert Orchid
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Mixed messages here. I was told yesterday he'd worked out that Arkle was 20lbs better than Kauto Star.
April Fools already?
betsmate
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Post King George lull requires laughable statement to stimulate debate?
Desperate Dan
Senior Jockey
Brian H wont like this.
Desert Orchid
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Don't shoot the messenger...
trackside528
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Interesting piece on Arkle on the Timeform website in the aftermath of Kauto Star's latest King George:
Arkle
In the 1988/89 edition of Chasers & Hurdlers the essay on Desert Orchid began by stating that ‘Comparisons between past and present champions are always difficult to make, and claims are so obviously open to challenge as to make the task seem almost pointless. But when an exceptional and immensely popular horse like Desert Orchid arrives on the scene the desire to make comparisons becomes well-nigh irresistible.’ In the aftermath of Kauto Star’s outstanding fourth victory in the King George, a performance surpassed over jumps in Timeform’s experience by only two horses, the urge to make cross-generational comparisons has once more become too strong to ignore. As far as staying chasers in particular and steeplechasers in general are concerned, such discussions all return eventually to one horse whose record stands as the benchmark against which all others are measured, namely Arkle. As a bare figure on paper, not set in the context of the performances from which it is derived, Arkle’s Timeform rating of 212 seems scarcely credible, especially considering that among the great staying chasers of the modern era, only Desert Orchid and now Kauto Star have achieved a level of performance within two stones of it.
Arkle’s performance in weight-for-age championship races and, crucially, when conceding lumps of weight all around in handicaps were extraordinary by the standards of his day and nothing short of staggering by those of the present day. The contemporary chronicles of his career found in Timeform’s The Racing Week bear witness to this, charting the progress of his career from the usurper of Mill House as the best staying chaser around, through his emergence as an all-time great and beyond to the point at which the writer felt confident enough to state that ‘One day someone, I hope, will write a book about Arkle, and on the first page I suggest they make the emphatic statement that he is the best horse that ever jumped fences.’
Arkle’s earliest top-level success came in the 1964 Cheltenham Gold Cup in which, as a seven-year-old, he shaved four seconds off the course record when defeating the previous year’s winner and hot favourite, Mill House. The Racing Week noted that it would have taken ‘an exceptionally good chaser’ to dethrone Arkle, but that the conditions of the race had favoured him, given that Mill House had to make his own running. With the record between these two great steeplechasers standing at one-all (Mill House won their first meeting in the 1964 Hennessy, Arkle having slipped badly on landing three out,) the’ rubber match’ took place in the next season’s Hennessy, where Arkle, carrying 12-7 was set to concede 3 lb to Mill House. In the race Arkle removed for good any doubt that may have remained about his merit, cutting out most of the running to defeat fellow Irish raider Ferry Boat (in receipt of 35 lb) by ten lengths with a very tired Mill House only fourth, leading The Racing Week to conclude that ‘England clearly has nothing to offer in the way of resistance, except the handicapper.’
As it turned out, not even the handicapper could limit Arkle’s brilliance, a fact perhaps best demonstrated by reference to his performance in the 1965 Gallaher Gold Cup at Sandown. Having added that year’s Gold Cup to his portfolio, he now faced his stiffest task yet, once more carrying 12-7 but this time conceding 16 lb to Mill House, the biggest pull in the weights that that rival ever received. Arkle surged to a twenty-length victory, securing the lead from Mill House at the Pond fence before storming clear. At the death he had lowered the course record by some eleven seconds, establishing a time which has to this day not been bettered over the trip at Sandown. Precious few horses could even get into the handicap proper against Arkle, such was his superiority. Instead they were forced to carry the fixed minimum weight of 10-0, in effect giving them no hope of challenging him. The few that could race in handicaps against him off their properly allotted weight still fared little better. For instance Rondetto, the second home in the Gallaher off 10-9, would clearly have needed far more than 9 lb off his back to give him an equal chance with Arkle. It is in performances such as this that Arkle’s legacy is most clearly cemented. Runs in big handicaps conceding lumps of weight to most of his rivals allowed Arkle to establish, and then confirm, a level of form unmatched by any other staying chaser in history. Such events offer more potential than weight-for-age championship races to find out how good the top horses really are. With a few notable exceptions, the top chasers of the modern era are generally kept to non-handicaps and as such are less likely to achieve stratospheric ratings. In light of this, the outstanding merit of Kauto Star is brought into sharp focus, given that he achieved his rating of 191 racing outside of handicap company.
Arkle continued his dominance both in and out of handicaps as his career progressed, adding a second Hennessy to his record along with a King George in which he had no trouble keeping up with a searing pace set by champion two-miler Dunkirk, coming home in splendid isolation after that rival’s fatal fall. A third Gold Cup followed, this time by thirty lengths at 1/10. Arkle would race only three more times after that. In the 1966 Hennessy he suffered a half-length defeat to Stalbridge Colonist, who was receiving 35 lb. Incidentally, Stalbridge Colonist’s jockey, Stan Mellor, once said that Arkle ‘could have won the race by twenty-five lengths’ and put his defeat down to the fact that he delivered Stalbridge Colonist fast, late and unseen by Arkle’s jockey Pat Taaffe, denying him the chance to get his horse balanced as he seemed to be ‘happily winning the race in a canter’. Stalbridge Colonist went on to be beaten only three quarters of a length in the next spring’s Gold Cup, whilst What A Myth, beaten a length and a half in the Hennessy in receipt of 33 lb, went on to win the 1969 Gold Cup. It is worth noting also that Mill House, so utterly dominated by Arkle in all but their first meeting, came back to win the 1967 Whitbread Gold Cup under top weight, adding further substance, as if it were needed, to Arkle’s form. Arkle made his final racecourse appearance in the 1966 King George in which he suffered a career-ending injury. He was still in his prime at the time, just nine years old and looking as if he could go on to equal, or even surpass, the mighty Golden Miller’s record five victories in the Gold Cup. All told he had been beaten only four times in twenty-six steeplechases, including that ill-fated final appearance, boasting an unmatched record that included three Cheltenham Gold Cups, three Leopardstown Handicap Chases (under 12-0 and 12-7 twice), two Hennessy Gold Cups (under 12-7), the King George IV Chase, the Irish Grand National (12-0), the Gallaher Gold Cup (12-7) and the SGB Handicap Chase (12-7). Arkle’s form stands up to the closest scrutiny substantiating the impression of a phenomenon, ‘as close to unbeatable as any horse is ever likely to be.’
Arkle
In the 1988/89 edition of Chasers & Hurdlers the essay on Desert Orchid began by stating that ‘Comparisons between past and present champions are always difficult to make, and claims are so obviously open to challenge as to make the task seem almost pointless. But when an exceptional and immensely popular horse like Desert Orchid arrives on the scene the desire to make comparisons becomes well-nigh irresistible.’ In the aftermath of Kauto Star’s outstanding fourth victory in the King George, a performance surpassed over jumps in Timeform’s experience by only two horses, the urge to make cross-generational comparisons has once more become too strong to ignore. As far as staying chasers in particular and steeplechasers in general are concerned, such discussions all return eventually to one horse whose record stands as the benchmark against which all others are measured, namely Arkle. As a bare figure on paper, not set in the context of the performances from which it is derived, Arkle’s Timeform rating of 212 seems scarcely credible, especially considering that among the great staying chasers of the modern era, only Desert Orchid and now Kauto Star have achieved a level of performance within two stones of it.
Arkle’s performance in weight-for-age championship races and, crucially, when conceding lumps of weight all around in handicaps were extraordinary by the standards of his day and nothing short of staggering by those of the present day. The contemporary chronicles of his career found in Timeform’s The Racing Week bear witness to this, charting the progress of his career from the usurper of Mill House as the best staying chaser around, through his emergence as an all-time great and beyond to the point at which the writer felt confident enough to state that ‘One day someone, I hope, will write a book about Arkle, and on the first page I suggest they make the emphatic statement that he is the best horse that ever jumped fences.’
Arkle’s earliest top-level success came in the 1964 Cheltenham Gold Cup in which, as a seven-year-old, he shaved four seconds off the course record when defeating the previous year’s winner and hot favourite, Mill House. The Racing Week noted that it would have taken ‘an exceptionally good chaser’ to dethrone Arkle, but that the conditions of the race had favoured him, given that Mill House had to make his own running. With the record between these two great steeplechasers standing at one-all (Mill House won their first meeting in the 1964 Hennessy, Arkle having slipped badly on landing three out,) the’ rubber match’ took place in the next season’s Hennessy, where Arkle, carrying 12-7 was set to concede 3 lb to Mill House. In the race Arkle removed for good any doubt that may have remained about his merit, cutting out most of the running to defeat fellow Irish raider Ferry Boat (in receipt of 35 lb) by ten lengths with a very tired Mill House only fourth, leading The Racing Week to conclude that ‘England clearly has nothing to offer in the way of resistance, except the handicapper.’
As it turned out, not even the handicapper could limit Arkle’s brilliance, a fact perhaps best demonstrated by reference to his performance in the 1965 Gallaher Gold Cup at Sandown. Having added that year’s Gold Cup to his portfolio, he now faced his stiffest task yet, once more carrying 12-7 but this time conceding 16 lb to Mill House, the biggest pull in the weights that that rival ever received. Arkle surged to a twenty-length victory, securing the lead from Mill House at the Pond fence before storming clear. At the death he had lowered the course record by some eleven seconds, establishing a time which has to this day not been bettered over the trip at Sandown. Precious few horses could even get into the handicap proper against Arkle, such was his superiority. Instead they were forced to carry the fixed minimum weight of 10-0, in effect giving them no hope of challenging him. The few that could race in handicaps against him off their properly allotted weight still fared little better. For instance Rondetto, the second home in the Gallaher off 10-9, would clearly have needed far more than 9 lb off his back to give him an equal chance with Arkle. It is in performances such as this that Arkle’s legacy is most clearly cemented. Runs in big handicaps conceding lumps of weight to most of his rivals allowed Arkle to establish, and then confirm, a level of form unmatched by any other staying chaser in history. Such events offer more potential than weight-for-age championship races to find out how good the top horses really are. With a few notable exceptions, the top chasers of the modern era are generally kept to non-handicaps and as such are less likely to achieve stratospheric ratings. In light of this, the outstanding merit of Kauto Star is brought into sharp focus, given that he achieved his rating of 191 racing outside of handicap company.
Arkle continued his dominance both in and out of handicaps as his career progressed, adding a second Hennessy to his record along with a King George in which he had no trouble keeping up with a searing pace set by champion two-miler Dunkirk, coming home in splendid isolation after that rival’s fatal fall. A third Gold Cup followed, this time by thirty lengths at 1/10. Arkle would race only three more times after that. In the 1966 Hennessy he suffered a half-length defeat to Stalbridge Colonist, who was receiving 35 lb. Incidentally, Stalbridge Colonist’s jockey, Stan Mellor, once said that Arkle ‘could have won the race by twenty-five lengths’ and put his defeat down to the fact that he delivered Stalbridge Colonist fast, late and unseen by Arkle’s jockey Pat Taaffe, denying him the chance to get his horse balanced as he seemed to be ‘happily winning the race in a canter’. Stalbridge Colonist went on to be beaten only three quarters of a length in the next spring’s Gold Cup, whilst What A Myth, beaten a length and a half in the Hennessy in receipt of 33 lb, went on to win the 1969 Gold Cup. It is worth noting also that Mill House, so utterly dominated by Arkle in all but their first meeting, came back to win the 1967 Whitbread Gold Cup under top weight, adding further substance, as if it were needed, to Arkle’s form. Arkle made his final racecourse appearance in the 1966 King George in which he suffered a career-ending injury. He was still in his prime at the time, just nine years old and looking as if he could go on to equal, or even surpass, the mighty Golden Miller’s record five victories in the Gold Cup. All told he had been beaten only four times in twenty-six steeplechases, including that ill-fated final appearance, boasting an unmatched record that included three Cheltenham Gold Cups, three Leopardstown Handicap Chases (under 12-0 and 12-7 twice), two Hennessy Gold Cups (under 12-7), the King George IV Chase, the Irish Grand National (12-0), the Gallaher Gold Cup (12-7) and the SGB Handicap Chase (12-7). Arkle’s form stands up to the closest scrutiny substantiating the impression of a phenomenon, ‘as close to unbeatable as any horse is ever likely to be.’
Desert Orchid
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He was all right, wasn't he?
Desert Orchid
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From a comment at the Guardian website:
Kicking King had Azertyuiop stuffed before the 2 mile mark in his King George - it happens. How many horses were in that King George? Was Dormant eased when he initially got detached, did he sulk when they went to fast for him early on in the race?
If that happened nowadays we would put a line under horses form, question weither it ran to form etc. Arkles days the form is taken as if every horse ran to form every single day - which is even more unlikely given training techniques back then.
Kauto Star beats a subsequent Hennessy top weight winner Denman in last seasons Gold Cup by 7 lengths on the bridle in the Gold Cup. We question did Denman run to form etc etc...nowadays holes are looked for in the form etc but its all positive back in Arkles day!!
Does anyone know what his highest mark is in non handicaps?
If that happened nowadays we would put a line under horses form, question weither it ran to form etc. Arkles days the form is taken as if every horse ran to form every single day - which is even more unlikely given training techniques back then.
Kauto Star beats a subsequent Hennessy top weight winner Denman in last seasons Gold Cup by 7 lengths on the bridle in the Gold Cup. We question did Denman run to form etc etc...nowadays holes are looked for in the form etc but its all positive back in Arkles day!!
Does anyone know what his highest mark is in non handicaps?
EC1
On a break
Even as an Arkle supporter ...what you say is true..we never question the old form but in real time we pick holes galore in present day stuff.
I would imagine when Mill House was beaten there would have been many excuses given on forums....if they had existed
but after saying that..and ignoring the handicap races against lesser lights than MH...Arkle's feat of hammering Mill House giving him 16lbs would surely have been unthinkable at the time of MH's rising...he was the best chaser we had seen since the war etc.....i would imagine he was lauded like Denman has been....if someone had suggested in 1963 that a horse could give MH 16lbs and a 20 len hammering I think the response would have been similar to ...what?...a horse could give KS 16 and a 20 len beating..impossible.
The Dunkirk race is on youtube somewhere by the way
answering the question about Arkle's rating outside handicaps..surely some of his KG and GC's would have given big ratings...he won them in very impressive style and by decent distances..from at least one real good horse..MH...the best since the war etc.
if KS beat Denman by 20 lengths giving him 16lbs what rating would you give KS?
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G
Gearoid
Guest
Galileo - Excellent points, especially the way future form is used to support Arkle. If Denman ran to his Hennessey form than Kauto is at the very least a 200 plus beast. These days form is so much clearer and markets so efficent that finding a horses mark is not guess work in open graded races.
EC1
On a break
how is KS a 200 horse based on Denman's Henessey run Gearoid?
G
Gearoid
Guest
Hindsight. A lot of what I have read abouj Arkle boasts about beating future big race winners as if the possibilty that they found improvment is diregarded. Why cant we use the same theory to rate Kauto? In fact on a line through Voy Por Ustedes, Kauto should be rated around 190 over two miles.
EC1
On a break
when you look at the number of races that Arkle won with 12-7+ on his back...then multiply the praise that Denman got carrying 11-12 by that number of times...I would bet that if a horse won as many handicaps under those weights now he would be getting big ratings..and them not being questioned
Gal says that Arkle could be overrated due to handicap wins...but when a present day horse wins a big handicap under a big weight like Denman they gets just as many plaudits as winning a conditions race
so it seems that handicaps are being run down from the past..but hyped up in present day
at least in Arkle's day those handicaps were contested by Gold Cup winners and future GC winners ...more so than they are today..most handicaps today are contested by..handicappers...so could arguably be said to be easier races to win under big weights
Gal says that Arkle could be overrated due to handicap wins...but when a present day horse wins a big handicap under a big weight like Denman they gets just as many plaudits as winning a conditions race
so it seems that handicaps are being run down from the past..but hyped up in present day
at least in Arkle's day those handicaps were contested by Gold Cup winners and future GC winners ...more so than they are today..most handicaps today are contested by..handicappers...so could arguably be said to be easier races to win under big weights
EC1
On a break
think you are generalising a little Gearoid...Arkle beat very good horses in their prime...obviously MH..who isn't a bad yardstick just on his own...a horse that still managed to win the whitbread after Arkle had finished..so Arkle was beating MH further each time they met..when MH would have been at least a 175 horse if not higher on todays ratings..175+20+16 = 211 rating. 175 is a very conservative mark for MH as well.
yes ..Arkle gets credit for beating future horses..but when you consider that MH was considered the Denman of his day..then you need a horse today that could beat an on form Denman by 20 giving 16...would you have believed at the time that any horse could do that to a horse like MH or Denman today
Denman was not at his best last year..if he was MDB would be a 195+ horse...but we do know D wasn't match fit...whereas MH had no excuses against Arkle
a match fit Denman and a match fit KS is going to be a tight race...a match fit MH and match fit Arkle wasn't a tight race..there is the difference between KS and Arkle
i'm not running KS down..I think he is the best thing around ..but Arkle wasn't a normal animal by any means
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Euronymous
Senior Jockey