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Gearoid
Guest
BrianH thinks Arkle will be around 8lbs higher than Kauto Star when he gets reasseased.
Phil Smith - Arkle
- Thread starter Guest_
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EC1
On a break
who is BrianH?
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LukeWilson
Guest
What would a horse need to do in order to better Arkle?
How can we compare our opinions now to those back in the day, its ludacris - great horses shouldn't be compared because there is no way of comparing them legitimately.
How can we compare our opinions now to those back in the day, its ludacris - great horses shouldn't be compared because there is no way of comparing them legitimately.
EC1
On a break
a horse would need to beat a match fit rival of the quality of Denman by a minimum of 20 lengths in a relative canter..which is what Arkle did to MH many times
imo if Kauto Star is a 193/194 horse then Arkle on the same scale would be a 210 horse
will be interesting to see what the outcome is of this reassessment
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Or, Mill House was overrated as well.
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
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Colin Phillips
At the Start
.............allegedly.
EC1
On a break
yes i was serious
i can't remember BrianH and i've been reading here for a good while..will he not come back and post?
its not woth letting folk drive you away from forums..i know how he feels/felt though
maybe these missing people should make a new years resolution..and think bollox to the past..and start posting again
EC1
On a break
i'll play devils advocate
as your argument is based on an assumption of past = slow poor horses....maybe its todays horses that aren't as good..what if you have it the wrong way round?..and that todays horses are actually inferior to those in the past...there is no hard evidence either way..because each set of horses are compared with their contempories to produce ratings
that argument could be backed up with the course record that Arkle smashed by loads and still stands today..it could also be supported by a more fragile breed of NH horses these days with all the flat horse influence..these china doll horses maybe easier to beat
the argument that past is shite and future is better is a very flimsy one that can easily be turned on its head
you would be questioning a lot of racing people's (at that time) judgement to say that MH was overrated
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
The course record that Arkle holds at Sandown, what trip is it?
We've going over the same ground here now, i'm not saying past horses - bad - today's horses - good. I'm just saying the racing nowadays is so much more competitive. And ultimately that if Arkle is a 195-199 animal then Mill House would have been 180 or so instead. Still a very fine rating.
We've going over the same ground here now, i'm not saying past horses - bad - today's horses - good. I'm just saying the racing nowadays is so much more competitive. And ultimately that if Arkle is a 195-199 animal then Mill House would have been 180 or so instead. Still a very fine rating.
davidjohnson
At the Start
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On a point of pedantry but Arkle's rating isn't being reassessed. As far as I'm aware, the BHA have never given him a rating so can't reassess something they haven't previously assessed. Timeform aren't planning a reassessment any time soon as far as I know.
EC1
On a break
3miles 100yards
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
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I've often wondered if horses weren't asked to go as fast early on in 'the old days' as they do now. Much was made at the time of how Scu used to ride [ultra-fit] horses into a clear lead then give them a breather before kicking on again just as they were closing him down. I have to say, looking back through all the old clips from back then, I don't get the impression they went slower.
French racing has a reputation for easy pace and strong finishes yet since Doumen started sending his over regularly to plunder our big prizes, it seems the allegedly stronger pace here doesn't inconvenience French horses.
I'm inclined to think the faster times these days is more down to better course husbandry, better drainage and better 'shaping' of fences. I'm inclined to think the grass is shorter these days too.
Training regimes interest me. Although Pipe, Nicholls and Henderson, along with the most of the newer trainers, have more science-orientated facilities, it isn't that long ago that the 'old school' guys were holding their own against them.
Monica Dickinson (and then Michael) was getting them very fit by running them up hills 30 years ago - not long after Arkle's day. To some extent, MC Pipe copied their methods.
I'd want to know at what point horses suddenly got better than they were 40 years ago. People will say it's been a gradual thing due to improvements in training and feeding, etc., but I reckon that's a bit of an insult to the likes of Fred Winter, the Rimmells, Fulke Walwyn and all the good Irish trainers.
French racing has a reputation for easy pace and strong finishes yet since Doumen started sending his over regularly to plunder our big prizes, it seems the allegedly stronger pace here doesn't inconvenience French horses.
I'm inclined to think the faster times these days is more down to better course husbandry, better drainage and better 'shaping' of fences. I'm inclined to think the grass is shorter these days too.
Training regimes interest me. Although Pipe, Nicholls and Henderson, along with the most of the newer trainers, have more science-orientated facilities, it isn't that long ago that the 'old school' guys were holding their own against them.
Monica Dickinson (and then Michael) was getting them very fit by running them up hills 30 years ago - not long after Arkle's day. To some extent, MC Pipe copied their methods.
I'd want to know at what point horses suddenly got better than they were 40 years ago. People will say it's been a gradual thing due to improvements in training and feeding, etc., but I reckon that's a bit of an insult to the likes of Fred Winter, the Rimmells, Fulke Walwyn and all the good Irish trainers.
J Alfred Prufrock
At the Start
Mark Denny of Stanford University would disagree with you, according to the population-driven analysis in his paper "Limits to running speed in dogs, horses and humans". Then again, he made some very dubious assumptions elsewhere in that paper, so perhaps these professors of statistics are not all they are cracked up to be.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
I don't think they're better, I just think with the increased horsey population and all the French breds in particular that that it is more competitive now and obviously we have more second tier 150/60 chasers with which to compare the champions with.
My Martin Pipe comment was a tad flippant as I think what he did was just mop up all the minor contests. It's not as if he did what Paul Nicholls is doing now and farm all the top races.
Incidentally some smashing footage of Flyingbolt and Arkle on CH4 racing today. I've never seen the former's Irish National win and was under the impression that most of his races had been wiped or destroyed.
EC1
On a break
I didn't see C4 today but have seen some Flyingbolt footage before..youtube had or have some
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Gearoid
Guest
I asked this at the top of the thread but people wese too busy with one lrs.
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Gearoid
Guest
I used the word reassesed so the fault lies with me. Ive text BrianH to ask why he does not have a rating as its a fascinating subject but no one seems bothered to explain it. No wonder us young people dont want to believe he was any good.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Yeah, I too wonder how he could have run in races like the Henessy if he didn't have an actual rating.
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Gearoid
Guest
Fair point, this thread will run aod run.
davidjohnson
At the Start
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Gearoid
I'm not entirely sure of the facts so hopefully anyone with a greater knowledge of the subject can come up with a definitive reason but as I understand it, ratings as such weren't used in the 60's, but weights were formed at the handicappers discretion from the entries. So rather than
212 Arkle
210 Flying Bolt
191 Mill House
It would only ever have been presented in the form of
12-7 Arkle
12-5 Flying Bolt
10-13 Mill House
I presume this is why they refer to the need for 2 seperate handicaps depending on whether Arkle would run or not, otherwise everything else would just be given 10-0 and the race would cease to be a handicap.
Not 100% sure that is an accurate assessment, but I reckon its better than some of those at the start of the thread!
I'm not entirely sure of the facts so hopefully anyone with a greater knowledge of the subject can come up with a definitive reason but as I understand it, ratings as such weren't used in the 60's, but weights were formed at the handicappers discretion from the entries. So rather than
212 Arkle
210 Flying Bolt
191 Mill House
It would only ever have been presented in the form of
12-7 Arkle
12-5 Flying Bolt
10-13 Mill House
I presume this is why they refer to the need for 2 seperate handicaps depending on whether Arkle would run or not, otherwise everything else would just be given 10-0 and the race would cease to be a handicap.
Not 100% sure that is an accurate assessment, but I reckon its better than some of those at the start of the thread!
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Gearoid
Guest
Thanks DJ - Id really like to know because the whole thing fascinates me. Hopefully Brian will give me the answer but Id say ynu are on the ball amd 8lbs between hin and Kauto will be around the mark.
EC1
On a break
How is Brian going to know more than anyone else?...DO seems as good as anyone to me to come up with a decent rating