Princess Flame

Originally posted by rorydelargy@Jun 25 2008, 01:26 AM
Fron the RP in 2004:

"Even he, however, couldn't hold a candle to the magnificent German apprentice Katharina Neubecker, who in January 2002 won both the Chancellor's Award for Disarming Honesty and the annual Glenn Hoddle "On Reflection I Really Wish I Hadn't Said That" Trophy for her excuse for an unusually passive ride on Sir Ivanhoe at Neuss.
The candid Neubecker revealed that her instructions from trainer Andreas Bolte were to race in last place and stay there, so that Sir Ivanhoe would receive a low handicap rating."
Neuss, my favourite German track.

I´m sure I´ve told this one before but whilst at Coral one Sunday afternoon they had Neuss AW floodlight racing on SIS. The betting went like this:

Horse A: 1/16 to 1/6 (roughly in one move)
Horse B: 16/1 to 5/1 (in one move)

The race went as follows:

Horse A went off into a 10 length lead, the field followed, horse B came there on the bridle to challenge in the last furlong and failed by 3 lengths without the jockey as much as tapping it. They probably think it´s straight too.
 
Incidentally, Andreas Bolte was the first trainer every suspended by the German authorities. I'm not sure thay really have market moves at Neuss ind!
 
Kathy,

I suggest you re-read this thread .. from what I can see, Rory has done absolutely nothing wrong and has discussed a topic in an appropriate manner (along with others).

Not sure why this is all bothering you so much?
 
The worst that Rory can be accussed of in my humble opinion, based on the documented evidence on here is innuendo through sarcasm "Gawd bless 'em". I wouldn't personally like to try and make that stick though. His noting that the Chepstow run was "injudicious" would fall within the realms of reasonably personal opinion, (or 'fair comment' to be technically correct) and provided he didn't seek to link this to a deliberate act by way of direct accusation (so far as I can see, he hasn't) then there wouldn't be much to go on to be honest. Only 3 people use the specific word "crook" (make that 4 now) on the thread, and Rory isn't one of them (JFT, Bar the Bull and Kathy twice). Context is everything admittedly, and kathy would point out that she was using it to deny an allegation. Unfortunately, the allegation wasn't made as such, and certainly not be Rory.

It strikes me it was the content of the PM that inflammed this situation rather than anything posted? This is obviously unfortunate and probably was unnecessary, ill judged and provocative in intent, however, provided it was an exchnage between Rory and Shadow Leader only, then it was always my understanding that the libel laws couldn't be applied because it fell below the "three or more people threshold". Not sure how things work though, if the second person then chooses to pass the accusation onto a third, by way of a relay without the first persons consent? Certainly someone who repeats or publishes an accusation already made, can most definately be sued.

Oh what the hell.......back to work and time to start exercising myself with more pressing matters :P
 
I've already noted on this thread that I don't rate the jockey, even accounting for the fact that she is an apprentice, but I do find it interesting that her flapping around in the saddle is a lot more animated at Newbury than at Chepstow. Perhaps there are reasons for this that have been passed on to the stewards that aren't in the public domain, for example perhaps the rider was unsuited by Chepstow's gradients and was unbalanced after meeting minor interfererence. My point is, to the outsider looking in, the Chepstow run in isolation looks bad, add in the support for it yesterday and the different approach of the jockey (both races were slowly run but at Chepstow she was happy to have the horse anchored in rear, but not at Newbury) and there is enough to seek an explanation. Certainly no witch-hunt on my behalf, as Rory has pointed out there have been various threads on trf to which I have started and contributed which have been of similar vein.
 
I have no opinion on the races having seen neither, but surely any extra effort on Manser's part in the second race, could be as a result of a bollocking form the trainer following the first poor effort?

On the general tenor of this thread: I see malice neither to Powell nor to Kathy in the way the argument has been conducted. Loyalty to a trainer is admirable - but we must all feel we can address legitimate questions esp where they happen in a race, without our comments being taken personally. Given the number of links between forumites and trainers, this is certain sometimes to be a little uncomfortable for those with personal ties; time to just state the argument for the defence, and then stand back.

I do strongly feel we are entitled to believe we can express ourselves frankly without the threat of any forumite's comments being sent off to the trainer, jockey, CofC or whoever etc in question. I do beg people to think where that would lead. Similarly, forwarding anyone's pm is illegal. Please stop and think.

And please, ladies: in common with all those who have met you in person - you are both better than you often appear here or in FF, when pursuing your personal quarrels. You both have much to offer here, and are good company in real life. Please, please try to keep the personal stuff out of the forums :what: It's really wearing on the rest of us!
 
Have looked at the BHA site and there was definitely no enquiry into the improvement shown; I suspect that a wrist-slap should have been the order of the day first time round rather than a summons to HQ after the win. Brendan Powell was reasonably open about the prospects of the mare winning a small race and the actual improvement between Chepstow and Newbury was about 12lb according to Timeform. That's not a startling improvement, but it's certainly significant.

For the record, here are the Timeform Perspective entries for Princess Flame's runs this flat season. The wording of the Chepstow entry, for those who know the Timeform style, is worth noting, as is the fact that they seem to think the Newbury race was weak enough.

24/06/08 NEWBURY
11 furlongs, 5 yards. Gd/Frm 1 of 13 10/1 tfig 17 rat 66 Kylie Manser
PRINCESS FLAME (GER) belatedly confirmed Chepstow promise, but she probably didn't need to improve much and did have the run of things, taking a keen hold up with the pace and keeping on having led again 2f out, edging left.
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08/06/08 BRIGHTON
9 furlongs, 209 yards. Gd/Frm 4 of 9 12/1 tfig 47 rat 58 Jim Crowley
PRINCESS FLAME (GER) had a fully-fledged jockey up, and a more realistic task, but was made to look decidedly one paced.
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22/05/08 HAYDOCK PARK
11 furlongs, 200 yards. Firm 8 of 8 33/1 tfig 29 rat 37 Kylie Manser
PRINCESS FLAME (GER) shouldn't be written off once going handicapping for all she ran poorly this time, as Chepstow was promising.
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06/05/08 CHEPSTOW
10 furlongs, 36 yards. Gd/Sft 3 of 11 100/1 tfig 43 rat 54+ Kylie Manser
PRINCESS FLAME (GER) showed fair form when successful over hurdles at the beginning of the year and this eye-catching qualifying run for a Flat handicap mark suggests she'll prove at least as good in this sphere under more positive tactics; patiently ridden after restrained leaving the stalls, she made constant progress and, after meeting a bit of interference 1f out, was merely cajoled home, passing the post full of running; the run attracted the attention of the stewards, who rather surprisingly chose only to note the explanations of connections.
 
Given the way the spotlights thread has gone and this horse's appearance at Pontefract today, I thought I'd bring it back to the top.

I'm sure all forumites will join me in wishing Brendan and Kylie the very best of luck at Pontefract today.
 
Thanks, David.

Kylie Manser wins a 2 week working holiday in Miami today if she can win - or maybe she only needs to be placed. I'm not sure how the points are awarded.

Brendan Powell owns Princess Flame now although I think he may be at Fontwell where he has a bucket full of NH runners.

Good luck to them both today!
 
Best of luck to them today. I'd be concerned about the money for Byron Bay, the horse hasn't been put in a race properly for about a year and it was a non-runner yesterday!
 
A great, strong ride from Kylie Manser and she wins a trip to Miami (I think) on a working holiday.

If you feel so strongly, Chris - why not write to the authorities. Just a thought.
 
A great, strong ride from Kylie Manser and she wins a trip to Miami (I think) on a working holiday.

Indeed ~ there are plenty who have criticised Kylie for being weak in a finish but she's certainly knocked that idea on the head; she may not be the prettiest in terms of style, but she showed real strength in driving Princess Flame up the rails to win today.
 
Indeed Rory, it reflects really well on her how much stronger she has got since early May. She's clearly worked very hard since then.
 
I have read through this thread this evening as I noticed it after seeing Princess Flame had won again yesterday at Ponte.

I must say some of the tension generated within the thread is surprising, and I must say I find a lot of it puzzling in the extreme.

I am no great follow of the Powell yard, but I loved Dublin Flyer and Young Kenny and used to enjoy watching Brendan on those two old campaigners.

He is trying to build his business so good luck to him, and he has already attracted the patronage of J P McManus so has clearly impressed the right people.

Everyone knows trainers "have it off" all the time, getting good marks for less talented individuals. If the non-trier rule was applied to the letter every 15-20 runner maiden contested in the British Isles would spawn multiple bans.

Part of the art of gambling is to recognise which John Dunlop 2 year old with 2 runs under his belt is going to win 3rd time up or is going to be "ridden considerately" to get a decent mark. Part of the art of training is to maximise the potential return on the owner's investment. I am sure most owners would be unhappy if a trainer allowed their horse to be murdered by the handicapper for getting to close to a potentially decent rival in a low grade maiden, thereby ruining any chance of finding a winnable opportunity for the horse.

Moving onto Princess Flame. Having shown promise in her first two seasons under the NH code, she showed nothing in two quick fire maidens in April. However the second of those races was won by none other than the subsequent runner up in the Epsom Derby. Given that in that event she found herself not too far behind Tartan Bearer with 3 furlongs to go, it is hardly surprising she finished her race 21 lengths adrift of a horse now rated 116.

So, come Chepstow there is suddenly a big kerfuffle on here over her "improved" form, with the suggestion that the rider did not make every possible effort to achieve the best possible placing. Given what we now know about Tartan Bearer, was Chepstow that big a surprise?

The debate also focused on the suspicion the filly was "not off" at Chepstow. I have looked at the race again and given the way she fell out of the stalls it would have been fairly strict to suggest the rider should have beaten her up to get even closer at the finish.

The next real cause of consternation for some posters was the victory by the filly at Newbury on 24th June. Without checking the RP Database one would have been forgiven for thinking that she ran two abysmal races, and then suddenly popped up as a "plot" that evening according to some posts on here. However whilst she appeared to run poorly at Haydock once again that was in a race won by the filly who was runner up to Dar Re Mi in a Sandown maiden, and has since not been disgraced in a Listed race. It is also worth recalling that Princess Flame's SP of 33/1 reflected her chances in the Haydock event.

Next on to Brighton. In this heat she did anything but run abysmally. She finished 4th in her first handicap off 57, only 4 lengths behind a proven course specialist, and a favourite who had plummeted in the weights from 75 to 60 in a year. Princess Flame started 12/1 that day and hardly appeared to be given an easy time of things.

So, to Newbury itself. How big a surprise was this victory? Was it a performance that was completely unexpected? Hardly - Princess Flame gave Astrolibra 13lbs at Brighton, and that filly then finished 7 lengths behind Wee Charlie Castle at Yamouth a week later, giving the gelding 6lbs and trying to defy a penalty - not easy at the best of times. At Newbury Princess Flame started 10/1 (hardly a price you would say smells of a handicap plot, and it certainly wasn't an ATR market mover on the day). She was running off exactly the same mark as Wee Charlie Castle, who was now himself burdened with a 6lb penalty, and was hardly being asked to climb a mountain to find the 3 or 4lbs needed to bridge the apparent gap with Wee Charlie castle on the Astrolibra line.

Wee Charlie Castle has gone on since Newbury to frank the form and see his rating rise to 75. Princess Flame has done precisely the same, franking the form and acquiring a rating in the 70s.

I have seen a lot of plots down the years, and often taken advantage of those flagged up by ATR - I recall a serious coup by Stuart Williams a couple of years ago at Yarmouth when a filly showing no "previous" was backed down to low single figures from 33s.

As for her having shown improvement to the tune of 21lbs plus in 2 month as one poster implied, well her RPR for Chepstow was 53 and had risen to 63 for Newbury - which is only 10lbs. And once you include Brighton's run in the equation the progression is perfectly logical.

Princess Flame does not strike me as ever having been a "plot", in anyway shape or form. I don't believe she was deliberately stopped at Chepstow, and equally I did not find her victory at Newbury as some sort of "bolt out of the blue" as seems to have been suggested. As for betting patterns, well nothing was reported odd as far as I am aware, and as we all know Betfair are as hot as mustard in ringing the alarm bells with these things.

I am with Kathy on this one - a storm in a tea cup.
 
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Everyone knows trainers "have it off" all the time, getting good marks for less talented individuals. If the non-trier rule was applied to the letter every 15-20 runner maiden contested in the British Isles would spawn multiple bans.

Part of the art of gambling is to recognise which John Dunlop 2 year old with 2 runs under his belt is going to win 3rd time up or is going to be "ridden considerately" to get a decent mark. Part of the art of training is to maximise the potential return on the owner's investment. I am sure most owners would be unhappy if a trainer allowed their horse to be murdered by the handicapper for getting to close to a potentially decent rival in a low grade maiden, thereby ruining any chance of finding a winnable opportunity for the horse.

Moving onto Princess Flame. Having shown promise in her first two seasons under the NH code, she showed nothing in two quick fire maidens in April. However the second of those races was won by none other than the subsequent runner up in the Epsom Derby. Given that in that event she found herself not too far behind Tartan Bearer with 3 furlongs to go, it is hardly surprising she finished her race 21 lengths adrift of a horse rated 116.

So, come Chepstow there is suddenly a big kerfuffle on here over her "improved" form, with the suggestion that the rider did not make every possible effort to achieve the best possible placing. Given what we now know about Tartan Bearer, was Chepstow that big a surprise?

The debate also focused on the suspicion the filly was "not off" at Chepstow. I have looked at the race again and given the way she fell out of the stalls it would have been fairly strict to suggest the rider should have beaten her up to get even closer at the finish.

I don't think you can take Tartan Bearer's win at Leicester as the same horse that won a Dante and came 2nd in a Derby. He improved significantly and was not fit at Leicester.

secondly it's all well saying trainers have it off and spotting this and that, but its still breaking the rules, which given your reply deems you feel that is acceptable.

Jockey's are asked to ride their mounts to achieve the best possible finishing position, something I feel wasn't done at Chepstow.

I couldn't give a rats arse if Brendan Powell or the owners backed it, what I'm stating is the horse didn't run to its full potential which in my own opinion was because the jockey was not riding the horse to the best of its ability.

If you believe its fair to give horses quiet runs then I'm very surprised and suggest if you ever go on to own horses you don't put that on your application form. There is a difference in horses showing inexperience over trips shorter than ideal than a horse that is tenderly looked after whilst still being hard on the bridle.

It's not for me to say anymore on this subject but if you think the horses run at Chepstow was a try then I'm totally and utterly amazed as the horses despite being hampered was never asked for a serious effort from the saddle.

I like Brendan as a trainer and think he is a good trainer but i do not feel the authorities are strong enough on trainers, jockeys, owners and so on when a horse is tenderly ridden when it maintains a chance of placing or winning or maybe even finishing mid division.

Taking races where a class horse wins and using him as a benchmark for the remainder is also very dangerous when form reading, you can't possibly honestly think Tartan Bearer has run anywhere near his potential at Leicester do you ??
 
So, to Newbury itself. How big a surprise was this victory? Was it a performance that was completely unexpected? Hardly - Princess Flame gave Astrolibra 13lbs at Brighton, and that filly then finished 7 lengths behind Wee Charlie Castle at Yamouth a week later, giving the gelding 6lbs and trying to defy a penalty - not easy at the best of times. At Newbury Princess Flame started 10/1 (hardly a price you would say smells of a handicap plot, and it certainly wasn't an ATR market mover on the day). She was running off exactly the same mark as Wee Charlie Castle, who was now himself burdened with a 6lb penalty, and was hardly being asked to climb a mountain to find the 3 or 4lbs needed to bridge the apparent gap with Wee Charlie castle on the Astrolibra line.

She was actually backed heavily early doors to mid afternoon, from around 11/1 into 13/2. Yet drifted on course around 7s to 10s.

The reason she may not have been flagged up on ATR was the fact Newbury is a RUK track. She was mentioned however on The Racing Post Betting Site as one of the ten heaviest backed horses between 10am and 11am that day.

Its immaterial whether she improved and won the races or not, the point made was, How busy was she on the run which qualified her for a mark, I agree she shouldn't have picked the stick up and given the filly 12 cracks, but she barely changed her hands to push the filly out, let alone pulled the stick out.

Its a subject which doesn't matter now, as the event is well passed and congrats to the jockey and trainer for winning some races and the jockey winning a Pontefract series out of it. But in a dark era where the BHA are meant to be watching horses like hawk's on their maiden runs for lack of effort lets say they missed the boat here.

You do see it every day, you said if they followed non trier rules to a t, there would be loads of bans and fines daily, I don't see what is wrong with that and would prefer it was stamped out all together. The fact is not running a horse to obtain its best possible finishing position is cheating. Its got nothing to do with getting a suitable mark, the handicapper watches all races and isn't thick enough to be totally misled. The fact is you let people get away with it and they continue to do it. If you have a 1m 4f horse that needs time and may be no better than a 70 horse you run at poor tracks or educate it over 1m or 10f where it can get involved and run a fair race without needing to have little to no assistance from the saddle. I personally would like to see the stewards alot more tough on trainers and jockeys, either that or perhaps we should use trials like they do in America.
 
Just out of interest, what non triers (not saying that PF was one of them of course) have been discussed on this forum since May or infact before May or haven't there been many/any -especially, in the depth that this one has.

Chris, I am still not sure what your personal gripe is with this particular horse/trainer/jockey combination but it does come across as verging on the obsessive.

Your views about PF being an obvious non trier were not backed up by the Stewards as no action was taken. Why can't you just leave it at that.
 
Chris, I think you have missed the point.

My post was not an exercise in condoning non-triers for the purpose of attaining winnable marks and connections "having it off". I was merely pointing out that given this sort of thing goes on all of the time, it seemed odd that the Princess Flame race (one that attracted no unfavourable media coverage) was worthy of such a prolonged thread, where the good name of the trainer is called into question.

You dwell on Tartan Bearer. I do not for one minute claim that horse ran to his pattern form at Leicester. However at the same time he was backed off the boards that day at 2/5 and the Stoute yard are not known for shying away from a punt when the fancy takes them. You say the horse was unfit that day - whilst not fully wond up, I very much doubt he would have been sent off at such cramped odds if he was not thought fit enough to do himself justice.

But Tartan Bearer was merely one aspect of my analysis. You seem to have ignored my references to her Haydock form (running into Icon Project), and the perfectly reasonable perfromance at Brighton prior to her Newbury victory.

You continue to claim she was not ridden to achieve the best possible position at Chepstow which I do not buy. If this was the case, and she was being "handicapped" by her connections, then why "expose" her to the handicapper when she goes off a 100/1 unbacked outsider. At least if she had been backed into say 33s/25s yours, or indeed a wholesale plunge had developed then your argument might hold water.

Instead, she makes another couple of appearances at odds of 33/1 and 12/1, the latter an effective class drop, and continues to be unbacked, even though at Brighton she runs off the mark that would see her winning at Newbury.

So my point remains this - if the connections were "having it off" then the betting patterns of all of her contests simply do not bear this out. Which is precisely why the media did not pick up on this, and why the only place where any debate about the riding at Chepstow has been raised.

I would personally have said the rides given by messrs Fortune and Callan in Otaared's maiden at Nottingham on Wednesday were blatant to the point of laughable, and would have been far more worthy of a "non-triers" thread on this forum.

Just because I and some others happen to disagree with you on the Princess Flame issue does not mean that we are condoning non-triers, and it is out of order to introduce this red-herring.
 
I would personally have said the rides given by messrs Fortune and Callan in Otaared's maiden at Nottingham on Wednesday were blatant to the point of laughable, and would have been far more worthy of a "non-triers" thread on this forum.

Just because I and some others happen to disagree with you on the Princess Flame issue does not mean that we are condoning non-triers, and it is out of order to introduce this red-herring.

I'd be inclined to agree with the first paragraph, and think it's a sad indictment on the stewarding here that Fortune only picked up a ban for dropping his hands in the last couple of strides when he'd been particularly tender in his handling all through the contest, a remark which applies to others in this and plenty of other maiden races. This isn't deliberate stopping, but when a horse is expected to win a maiden easily en route to better things, then very few behind want to get too close for fear of the handicapper. Ironically, I doubt that Princess Haya gives a monkeys.

Regarding the nature of the debate on Princess Flame, it's true to say that it has covered too much space for the severity of the "misdemeanour", real or imagined, but there's a fairly obvious reason for that. If I started a thread saying, for example, that Rick Dutrow was an inveterate cheat who eats babies and is clearly bad for racing (knowing that Dutrow is unlikely to be known personally by any forumite, and not the most charming to boot) and no-one demurred, that would be the end of the thread. It takes disagreement to create debate and this thread was always going to do that.
 
At first glance it looks as if Kylie Manser dropped her hands when in 3rd place at Yarmouth just then on one of Gay Kellerways and got mugged on the line.

Not seen replay, but looked as if she thought she had 3rd in the bag.
 
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At first glance it looks as if Kylie Manser dropped her hands when in 3rd place at Lingfield just then on one of Gay Kellerways and got mugged on the line.

Not seen replay, but looked as if she thought she had 3rd in the bag.

Yarmouth, and I can't comment as my picture broke up, but I was a backer of the beast in question.
 
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