Punchestown Thursday

[Irish Stamp]

My bad he was second

 

[Grasshopper]

I think it's more dangerous to over-estimate the effort, than it is to under-estimate it, No6.

Kicking King was only "race fit", if you think getting as far as the third fence fto has put fitness on the horse. And I don't think a time comparison with the novice races is in any way significant, given they were over three different trips, were miles slower than standard, and the winning novices will be lucky if they've run to ratings higher than 125 anyway.

Good to see WoA back, but let's not be under too many illusions about what was actually acheived. He beat a rag, a mule who doesn't stay, and a horse who is patently on the downgrade.

 

[Hamm]

Numbersix,

SL is entitled to her opinion, and i for one agree with it.

Kicking King was not race fit, as he fell after 3 fences on his previous run. Unless he has some aversion to retirement, I think KK should have run his last race.

 

[numbersix]

If the trainer admitted as much then i dont see anything wrong with Shadow leader's point

I am presuming you are unfamiliar with the quotes attributed to Mouse Morris? Allow be to be of assistance:

"We are not rushing him back. He is in strong work but we decided that time was running out. It is not even nine months since he had the surgery. Normally it takes a year before they are even being ridden out, but he has been ridden for the last six months."

At no stage did Morris "admit" that he believed he had started riding the horse out too soon after his surgery, which is what Shadow Leader rather disingenously has hung her argument on. He simply advised the public that he had been riding the horse out 3 months after his surgey. There is a very clear difference.

Now, if you had cared to familiarise yourself with the background to the debate, rather than rushing in to take sides as is your wont, you would be aware of the fact stem cell surgery was carried out on WoA. Given this is a relatively new form of treatment, and having taken advice from both the Gigginstown and his own vets, Morris acted accordingly.

It is probably worth bearing in mind that Mr Cool underwent stem cell surgery back in March 2004 and won his second race back from injury in May 2005 by an emphatic 6 lengths - a Class 2 Handicap Hurdle not an "egg and spoon race". So the period from his operation to his first race back (April 2005) was 11 months - given it takes about three months at least to get a horse to race fitness, Pipe must have been working Mr Cool after 8 months.

It is also worth considering that with stem cell surgery the aim is to improve the quality of healing by providing cells that have the ability to recreate normal tendon tissue, rather than simply scar tissue. Given Shadow Leader was at pains in April to point out that scar tissue is less flexible than normal tendon tissue, so often causing complications for horses returning from tendon injuries, it is not unreasonable to assume that the usual difficulties associated with bringing horses back from tendon injuries may be less prevalent. Which in turn may lie behind the timescales adopted by Morris and his vets.


War of Attrition had about 18 months off in total following his operation. Unlike Mr Cool he won on his first run back.

 

[clivex]

Now, if you had cared to familiarise yourself with the background to the debate, rather than rushing in to take sides as is your wont

I had no need to. I said "if".

Now would you agree that top english trainer David Pipes achivement with Well chief was of at least equal merit? One of the best of "recent years"? And he won a much better race i would suggest...

All the same, good to see WOA back. I agree with grasshopper though.

I am concerned that KK is simply not going to through with a real effort again. Isnt this the frequent legacy of injuries? Great shame. Out of the two, hes the one i would liked to have seem competing strongly again

 

[numbersix]

I had no need to. I said "if".

Now would you agree that top english trainer David Pipes achivement with Well chief was of at least equal merit? One of the best of "recent years"? And he won a much better race i would suggest...

Why wouldn't I agree - I merely stated I could not think of too many off the top of my head? And why do you insist on using the word "English" before Pipe's name (as if I or any reader would be unaware of his nationality)? This obsession yiou have with race Clivex is rather peculiar imo.

 

[numbersix]

I think it's more dangerous to over-estimate the effort, than it is to under-estimate it, No6....

....let's not be under too many illusions about what was actually acheived. He beat a rag, a mule who doesn't stay, and a horse who is patently on the downgrade.

Grasshopper in terms of form, I wouldn't disagree with you. It would be extremely unwise to back WoA on the strength of this victory next time out, and personally from a punting perspective I would prefer to see him defeat more reliable yardsticks before I got involved.

But that is a completely different debate to the one about whether Morris damaged the horse's future prospects with the timeframe of rehabilitation he adopted.

I was responding to the claim the race was no more than a schooling session (a claim designed to support the theory Morris has rushed the horse back nito work to early). I do not believe it can be dismissed as being such which is why I used the comparative times to show that at the very least it was run at a better clip than the novice events. Again, for punting terms, such comparisons would be unwise, so in that respect I do agree with you.

 

[Shadow Leader]

Right - for the last time.

I am standing by my opinions, stem cell treatment or no, I would not be even thinking about riding the horse again after onl 3 months. Hells bells, after treatment such as stem cell the horse would in all probability need three months complete box rest anyway, with short lead outs starting at the end of that period.

I also stand by my opinions that after a tendon injury you are more often than not working on borrowed time until the affected limb (or the opposite one, due to favouring of the 'good' leg) goes again. It's not nice to know, but it is unfortunately nearly always the case. I've seen and dealt with enough tendon injuries to be well aware of that fact and the heartache and frustration it brings.

Now, those are my opinions, formed through all too real personal experience, I'm happy with them, and I couldn't give a four XXXX if others don't agree, most especially not when it comes to internet forum trolls.

Where did the "don't feed the troll" smilie get to????!

Oh, and my comments about the race were all about agreeing with Rory - yes, it's good to see WoA back on the track but let's not get too carried away with what it means formwise. At least two people have commented on what a great training performance it was to get the horse to win also - it's no mean feat that he got him back on a racecourse, true, but one of those broken down horses or the no-hoper had to win the race, someone always does have to! Would similar accolades be heaped on the trainers of any of the other runners had they won? I'd like to see him run well in decent company next.

 

[numbersix]

Stop calling me a troll Shadow Leader. If any moderators are reading this, please can you ask her to stop levelling this accusation as not only is it untrue, it is also becoming rather tiresome.

Like you, I have opinions, and like you I am perfectly entitled to post them on here. Just because somebody happens to disagree with you does not make me a troll.

 

[Warbler]

it is also becoming rather tiresome.

Yes this whole thing most certainly is. I can't see where this can usefully go any longer other than degenerate into another mud slinging match between the two of you.