Racing's Future in danger

This is a forum for people with an interest in a and knowledge, even a love of racing, not just betting, and contributors speak knowledgeably of ownership, horse welfare, the social aspect of racing and many other issues. On the financial realities of the the sport there are many varied opinions but a general consensus that the sport has got it wrong and needs a radical update. This has been the case for many years and there has yet to be anything practical put forward that would cure what is a severely compromised sport/industry.
Nowadays the amount it now costs me to go to the March Festival would have been a very successful week back when I joined the Forum. Ill health does not permit me to cover the Finance of racing in one go but I'll try to address it in stages over the next few weeks.
My role as the head of a team seeking large financial transactions meant I had several opportunities to put together finance transactions in the betting industry, some of which I took.

One thing that people must realise is that Horse Racing in the UK is not the golden goose and that there is not a simple resolution.
 
I cannot see why our racing overseers cannot look at the French model and see where we might improve.

Except, I think I do. Don't they run the 'Mutuel' over there and isn't that a sort of tote system? If it is, the current administration that runs this country would see that as a 'Nanny State' kind of venture which is an absolute no-no if you worship at the shrine of the free market, whether it works or not.

No?
 
yorick said:
I cannot see why our racing overseers cannot look at the French model and see where we might improve.

Except, I think I do. Don't they run the 'Mutuel' over there and isn't that a sort of tote system? If it is, the current administration that runs this country would see that as a 'Nanny State' kind of venture which is an absolute no-no if you worship at the shrine of the free market, whether it works or not.

No?
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A lot of UK visitors to French courses and media covering the bigger meetings will often refer to the atmosphere at racing as 'dead' or words to that effect.

The tendency seems to be to blame it on the lack of bookmakers at the track.

Cards on the table, I haven't been to the racing in France since Alleged's second Arc so it's while. But I have no recollection back then - when I was a fairly regular attendee at Longchamp, Chantilly and Auteuil - of a lack of atmosphere, so have the French lost the appetite for going racing or are expectations of UK visitors and media people too high?

The difficulty with the PMU system - if there is one - is how strongly it is supported. Actually, there is a second difficulty, but one, in my opinion, that is easily resolved, and that is coupling. (The solution is just don't have it.) But the main one is the strength of the tote system, or PMU.

Not too much has been made of the World Pool innovation over here are the festival meetings, probably at the behest of the bookmakers, because it is likely to make them feel threatened.

I welcomed the idea of the WP but played no part in it so far this season. From memory, they put the WP standing ahead of big races up on-screen during Ascot but not at Goodwood. We should ask why.

The potential for pools that genuinely reflect vast market interest is commensurately vast. It might disadvantage raiders from Australia and Hong Kong (not that we get any from there) because HK punters have the reputation for being heavy bettors, regardless of how good or otherwise they might be at the game, but if HK punters latch on to something it will shrink in the pool betting. This, in turn, would lead to improved dividends for UK/European horses.

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I think the whole 'bookies make the atmosphere in GB and Ireland' is wholly overestimated propaganda and propagated directly and indirectly by the gambling lobby (helped by McCrirrick and Chapman et al who need employment) who fear the PMU model. I've been racing in France several times and USA many times and believe me, the atmosphere for a standard meeting in either of those places is a lot better than Lingfield or Thurles on their best days.
 
I don’t think there is need to clear the courses of all bookmakers. It’s not the independent bookies that are screwing racing. On the other hand the big high street firms need to be put back in their boxes.
 
Australia has bookmakers and TAB (Tote) on course. You can take a price on the TAB and many pubs have TAB terminals and TV coverage. No need for betting shops.
 
an capall said:
I think the whole 'bookies make the atmosphere in GB and Ireland' is wholly overestimated
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I agree.

I can't recall the last time I walked down a line of bookies at a track. That's partly because when I did and went back to check the on-screen shows in the betting offices, the prices were usually longer there and it was more convenient to just take a price there.
 
Desert Orchid said:
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The Tote also shot itself in the foot by increasing considerably its take-out from the pool. Didn't it go up to 35% at one time?

I do have to confess the downside of not having bookmakers would be that the current competition among them in the Saturday and festival races for extra place terms, BOGs and freebies would disappear and we'd be back to stingy terms. But it's a price I would be prepared to pay to get rid of the basterts. It would mean modifying my approach back to what it was before the appearance of so many outlets for betting thanks to the Internet but I'm sure something would come about to compensate.

I wouldn't feel too bad about not getting an extra place or two if I thought 'fun' owners were having their training outgoings covered by a winner and the greater the prize money the more likely the horses are to be trying. You only need to look back at some of the handicap winners at Goodwood to see how many of them left their previous more recent form well behind on the day big money was on offer. [I say that while accepting that some owners/trainers prefer to have winners at certain tracks/meetings over the actual prize money.]
 
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Desert Orchid The Tote also shot itself in the foot by increasing considerably its take-out from the pool

And why, oh why did they mess about with the Jackpot? In its day it was a fantastic value bet. (Thanks Baldy:mad:)
 
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I was at two meetings in France last month. One was a trotting meeting at a small track, the other was at Toulouse, featuring the Derby du Languedoc, one of the very few pattern races run outside the greater Paris region or Deauville.

The trot meeting had an attendance of a few hundred. The majority of those were teenagers on a school outing, who were subdivided and taken in groups to the stabling area and the parade ring. They were enjoying it and gave the atmosphere a lift. When they all left at the end of school hours there were only a few dozen left.

The next day was worse. The Toulouse track is only a couple of miles from the city centre and is easily accessed by tram. But apart from people directly involved there was no one there, just a small handful of tourists. The man running the hamburger stand was saying he'd had enough, he wouldn't be coming back.
 
I should add that there is a pattern of declining attendances in Ireland also. Part of it might be a Covid hangover, but there is a bigger reason.

People who like a serious bet are better off staying at home and following on their tvs and laptops. The tote is a shambles these days, pools are tiny and screens give only very limited information. If you're thinking of an exotic bet, even an exacta, you'll have no idea of the likely dividend. The betting ring is unable to compete against BOG terms offered by the off-course bookies. And tv viewers have access to news and interviews, and racing from other courses, while those who are trackside are often in the dark.

Add in concerns about racing's carbon footprint and maybe the model for the future will be based on near zero attendances at tracks. Not a joyful prospect though.
 
Grey, I had a totally opposite view in many respects. We stayed in Paris & as part of the week we went across town to attend the race meeting at Enghien. We arrived there, paid £3 to sit in a pullman seat in the stands where we watched the racing & had bets in a couple of races before we left to go for a meal back where we were staying. The bets went south (expected) but it was a thoroughly enjoyable experience (ease of getting there, cost, cleanliness of the venue etc). I would class myself in that situation as a non-racing type attending an evening out and I left thinking that for the price I'd try that again
 
Thursday evening at Donny tells its own story.
6 races,all valuable pots, and smallest field 11 runners.
Fair enough, it's a 'Racing League' meeting, but competitive contests are there, if the purse is there to attract them.
 
"We've been delighted to be able to contribute to the Savill plan and agree this now needs to widen to include all corners of the industry as we aim to deliver that aligned long-term racing strategy.
Seb Butterworth of Flutter, who own half the bookmaking industry.
Easy to figure who's actually churning the barrel-organ.:rolleyes:
 
Favour? Don't subscribe to RP but would like to read the pieces in weds edition on the danger to racing and Savill report etc. Thanks.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
 
archie said:
Australia has bookmakers and TAB (Tote) on course. You can take a price on the TAB and many pubs have TAB terminals and TV coverage. No need for betting shops.
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I think when you look at the money earned in Australia there's a need for somthing.........Take Ryan Moore for instance. He has amassed £45 million in prize money which is half of what New Zealand's James McDonald £90 million has in Australia and over a shorter perdiod of time.


How they can do it is beyond me but if they don't start by increasing prize money across the boards the rest is irrelevant and things will only get worse.
 
Strange how punters'minds work.
Rather than pay a 2% levy on their bets, they'd rather have some form of Tote garner a considerably larger pound of flesh?
 
reet hard said:
Strange how punters'minds work.
Rather than pay a 2% levy on their bets, they'd rather have some form of Tote garner a considerably larger pound of flesh?
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Tote betting would kill ante post markets. Although with the way bookies have been strangling the prices in recent years they’ll probably end up doing that on their own.
 
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