Racing's Future in danger

R

reet hard

Senior Jockey
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Don't know how many caught this, on the Morning Line that Peter Savill is to head up the inquiry into the future of our sport......ffs NO!
Remember who sold us out to the bookies in the first place, and his Competetive Racing Iniitiative is directly responsible for the current glut of meetings (both codes) and, by association,small fields owing the poor prize money relative to France and Ireland.
It seems there are already moves afoot to reduce the purse for the top races to filter money down to the lower echelons which, no doubt, will generate Band 8,9 & 10 races, which will dilute our sport even further.
I wrote to Colin Hord of the Punters Protecton Association a while ago on this subject and, at his behest to Joe Saumerez Smith, the BHA chair, who promised a reply within 5 days (7th June) which I'm still waiting for.
Could we somehow form a collective, maybe along with other forums and the PPA to get our voices heard?
Your thoughts would be welcome.
 
I think that’s a really good idea, reet, although given your experience of a promised reply one wonders. There’s a lot of experience on here (any industry heavyweights?) and I reckon it should be possible to arrive at a consensus view on the way forward. Not sure how to start - maybe peoples bullet points then expansion on the common themes emerging?
 
Seeing there's no way this could possibly be a bard directed towards me, I decided to read it.

I don't follow racing politics too closely but I'm in total agreement with you Reet.

Savill, in terms of racing here, is "Sad, Mad, Bad."

In many respects, I feel a wee bit lucky to be the age I am (coming up for 67) because I know deep down I'll be chucking the racing in the not-too-distant future.

To be honest, Brexit has postponed the decision. I was hoping by now to have been settled in Spain but we're having to re-think that, even though we'd be moving there as Irish citizens. I'd always reckoned once I'd moved there that I could more easily give up studying the form and go back to €1 three-crosses in a local bar in Benidorm or wherever.

The idea of Savill being involved in the future of racing is abhorrent. He is dross-orientated and his agenda is all about cementing the place of bookies in the running of UK racing.
 
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Thanks for the replies, though it's a little disconcerting so few seem concerned about the sport's future.
I've sent a copy of the opening post to the PPA, and will post any updates on this thread.
,Any suggestions, or advice, as to how to promote this cause would certainly be welcome.
 
Why do bookies need class 7,8 9 races when they have virtual racing?
Surely the biggest threat to racing is global warming ; what is racing's carbon number and what , if anything , have they done to reduce it ?
The anti brigade are too well funded and too organised to be stopped long term methinks.
Crowd numbers have taken a hit at Galway this week despite nice enough weather, even Nathan Carter could not give Plate Day attendance a boost.
Though not quite 67, like Desert O I feel racing is dying a death neither Peter nor Jimmy Savill(e) can fix.
Cradle to the grave care for horses is the first step; limit foal numbers by limiting stallion covers.
Less horses, less racing needed.
Spread the love by biting the bullet first.
Methinks.
 
Why do bookies need class 7,8 9 races when they have virtual racing?
Surely the biggest threat to racing is global warming ; what is racing's carbon number and what , if anything , have they done to reduce it ?
The anti brigade are too well funded and too organised to be stopped long term methinks.
Crowd numbers have taken a hit at Galway this week despite nice enough weather, even Nathan Carter could not give Plate Day attendance a boost.
Though not quite 67, like Desert O I feel racing is dying a death neither Peter nor Jimmy Savill(e) can fix.
Cradle to the grave care for horses is the first step; limit foal numbers by limiting stallion covers.
Less horses, less racing needed.
Spread the love by biting the bullet first.
Methinks.
 
I honestly think that most of racing's problems would be solved if the bookmakers were wiped from existence. No compensations or buyouts. If they do not go away peacefully, execute them. Glorified brokers/middlemen at best, parasites as a standard.

PMU for casual punters, exchanges for fixed odds value seekers. It is not as though bookies don't close winning accounts in any case so any argument for the sake of professionals is redundant.

More prize money = more funding for racing = better treatment of horses and stable staff alike; the two entities who give more to the sport in a split second than the bookies could ever provide over an eternity.

Unfortunately, any call to eliminate the bookies will be deemed unthinkable by that heavily compromised bunch in charge of the sport. Notwithstanding, for as long as the bookies have their talons sunk into the sport, no meaningful or sustainable progress can be accomplished.

I do hope that I am wrong and my cynicism is misplaced. I hope that your endeavour will be a success. However for that single reason I identify above, I fear that it will be a futile campaign.
 
BH
Seems we are thinking on very similar lines; so I've reproduced a couple of emailsI sent to Colin Hord:
June 2nd.
Hi,
I've been into racing for the past 60 years, so have some idea what I'm talking about.
It's my firm belief that small fields, lower purses than Ireland, and it's resultant effect on owners. breeders and trainers can be traced directly back to Peter Savil's 'competetive racing initiative', when he effectively sold out to the bookmakers.
I can also forward a fairly simple way to reverse the whole process, should anyone care to listen.
Hope this will find a sympathetic ear, and I'll be contacted to expound my theory.
Hi Colin,
Imo, it all boils down to the levy, which the Government advised the 2 industries to fix themselves a while ago. Savil's plan was supposed to fix that, instead it handed control to the bookmakers.
My proposal is to impose a 2p in the £ levy on all bets (similar to what Ireland have done for a while,now), which by my calculation, would generate significantly more than the current method, with the concomitant benefits to racing,breeding and ownership, and prize money should go up, allow fewer but richer meetings solve the small fields problem, put us on a level playing field with the Irish, and - most importantly - allow racing to rule itself, rather than being in thrall to the betting industry.
Reckon it would satisfy the Government, who'd be relinquishing control without losing income, punters may not like the idea initially, but they're already susidising the sport indirectly anyway, and would ultimately have better racing to watch and bet on.
Let me know what you think,please.
 
Bachelors Hall said:
I honestly think that most of racing's problems would be solved if the bookmakers were wiped from existence. No compensations or buyouts. If they do not go away peacefully, execute them. Glorified brokers/middlemen at best, parasites as a standard.

PMU for casual punters, exchanges for fixed odds value seekers. It is not as though bookies don't close winning accounts in any case so any argument for the sake of professionals is redundant.

More prize money = more funding for racing = better treatment of horses and stable staff alike; the two entities who give more to the sport in a split second than the bookies could ever provide over an eternity.

Unfortunately, any call to eliminate the bookies will be deemed unthinkable by that heavily compromised bunch in charge of the sport. Notwithstanding, for as long as the bookies have their talons sunk into the sport, no meaningful or sustainable progress can be accomplished.

I do hope that I am wrong and my cynicism is misplaced. I hope that your endeavour will be a success. However for that single reason I identify above, I fear that it will be a futile campaign.
Click to expand...

Well said. They've been having their cake and eating it way too long.

Level up online and highstreet bookmaking to ensure if a firm is offering 8 places online they should at least have the decency to give their shop customers the same terms and conditions.

Ideally the BHA could regulate our bookmakers so they all have to offer the same each way terms, places and each way percentages all the same in a tote like fashion.

Right now we have bookmakers exploiting high street punters which is why there are now currently more bookies than political parties in this country.

Right now the average man or woman who might pop into a Ladbrokes or Hills on Grand National Day for an each way bet are getting shafted, if not by perverse overrounds but by restricted each way betting terms.

I also see that you have to have a grid card to get best odds at a shop like Ladbrokes. My mum placed a patent at Royal Ascot. She took odds of 11/1 on Rohaan the morning of the race with Ladbrokes but the SP returned 18/1.
Given she had another decent priced winner on her patent not getting best odds cost her about 150 pound in winnings.

My mum likes privacy and therefore couldn't be arsed to get a grid card and doesn't bet enough to want or need an online account. So in 2022 she can't walk in to a high street betting shop knowing she will be getting best odds guaranteed.

Henceforth, If there is a death of highstreet bookmakers (which I doubt), some of it will be of bookmakers own making. They treat people like scum.

The more corporate it's got over the years the worse they have treat customers. They've no respect for anything bar their profits.
 
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BH
Seems we are thinking on very similar lines; so I've reproduced a couple of emailsI sent to Colin Hord:
June 2nd.
Hi,
I've been into racing for the past 60 years, so have some idea what I'm talking about.
It's my firm belief that small fields, lower purses than Ireland, and it's resultant effect on owners. breeders and trainers can be traced directly back to Peter Savil's 'competetive racing initiative', when he effectively sold out to the bookmakers.
I can also forward a fairly simple way to reverse the whole process, should anyone care to listen.
Hope this will find a sympathetic ear, and I'll be contacted to expound my theory.
Hi Colin,
Imo, it all boils down to the levy, which the Government advised the 2 industries to fix themselves a while ago. Savil's plan was supposed to fix that, instead it handed control to the bookmakers.
My proposal is to impose a 2p in the £ levy on all bets (similar to what Ireland have done for a while,now), which by my calculation, would generate significantly more than the current method, with the concomitant benefits to racing,breeding and ownership, and prize money should go up, allow fewer but richer meetings solve the small fields problem, put us on a level playing field with the Irish, and - most importantly - allow racing to rule itself, rather than being in thrall to the betting industry.
Reckon it would satisfy the Government, who'd be relinquishing control without losing income, punters may not like the idea initially, but they're already susidising the sport indirectly anyway, and would ultimately have better racing to watch and bet on.
Let me know what you think,please.
 
Bachelors Hall said:
I honestly think that most of racing's problems would be solved if the bookmakers were wiped from existence. No compensations or buyouts. If they do not go away peacefully, execute them. Glorified brokers/middlemen at best, parasites as a standard.

PMU for casual punters, exchanges for fixed odds value seekers. It is not as though bookies don't close winning accounts in any case so any argument for the sake of professionals is redundant.

More prize money = more funding for racing = better treatment of horses and stable staff alike; the two entities who give more to the sport in a split second than the bookies could ever provide over an eternity.

Unfortunately, any call to eliminate the bookies will be deemed unthinkable by that heavily compromised bunch in charge of the sport. Notwithstanding, for as long as the bookies have their talons sunk into the sport, no meaningful or sustainable progress can be accomplished.

I do hope that I am wrong and my cynicism is misplaced. I hope that your endeavour will be a success. However for that single reason I identify above, I fear that it will be a futile campaign.
Click to expand...

I agree entirely and love the bit I've emphasised in bold red.

I would happily start with an off-course tote monopoly and allow bookmakers on-course for the atmosphere but would want them phased out too.

I've always wanted Saturday racing to have two or three £100k+ handicaps and would love it to be five or six. I'd even accept Mark Johnston's preferred graded race system so long as the money was good. But winning a race should be enough to cover a season's outgoings on owning a horse.

When I lived in France (1976-77) trotting racing at Bordeaux (Le Bouscat) was offering prize money three or four times the amount on offer for average Saturday races. (And it cost next to nowt to get in.)

Costs now for racegoers also have to be cut. Today I was checking the Internet for the entry date for the Ayr Gold Cup and came across the following prices:

Grandstand (ie slum it) - £30
Club (ie Grandstand) - £55

Afternoon tea (ie 'pieces', some cupcakes and a pot of tea with a glass of Tesco Cava): £120 :blink::blink::blink:
Restaurant (2-course buffet - ie self-serve): £190 :blink::blink::blink::blink::blink:

They can fvck right off.
 
I don’t think I have ever been racing without having a bet and I much prefer betting with a bookmaker rather than the tote. It seems me that the two go together even though the racing comes first with some and the betting comes first with others.

I think the relationship is a symbiotic one, but it has got very much out of balance. Racing might need bookmakers, but bookmakers need racing and the BHA need to remember that and remember that their duty is to the good health of racing and not bookmakers’ balance sheets. It’s pretty clear that the proposal to drop a large slate of fixtures has been quietly dropped and equally clear that BHA have failed in their duty here.
I wonder why? They know there is too much racing and thatks an easy one to fix if there is the will.

It’s also pretty clear cut that prize money is a problem on two counts. Firstly, whilst we have the advantage of history and courses that provide the stage for top class racing it is still important that prizes here compete with what’s around elsewhere, otherwise the drain of top horses being trained - or raced- overseas will become a flood. Secondly, it never ceases to amaze me how owners/trainers can stand the expense of sending horses round the country to compete for a £3000/£6000 (or some such) pot. They can’t take home a great deal even if they win. The only way to afford it is to bet and that runs the increasing danger of false results as plots abound. The BHA need to get to grips properly with this and not just go down the Prince Charles route of accepting money from undesirables (bookmakers who demand their pound of flesh).

Lastly, racing will die if people don’t go racing (remember lockdown and the soulless courses - albeit disguised by TV zooming in on the runners). Currently, I think the paying customers are being milked by a heavily over expensive experience at most courses (there are some notable exceptions who I can’t recall atm) and something needs to be done about that.
 
Can someone explain to me as I've been out of the loop a while what is "The gambling white paper" from what I've just glanced at its a bill being postponed on internet gambling. Is it set to put heavy restrictions on online gambling or any chance of a ban like what happened in the states ?

Also I'm out the loop with the politics of racing but as usual it seems a bit of common sense among a few forumites who love the game make a lot more sense than anything the top brass will come up with.

As for the punting side of things I'd be all for a pool betting only system with more reasonable deductions and always thought for the general public added value pots whether it be jackpots, trifectas with proper organised and better advertised rollovers is the way forward.

Also just to add I've just read something about the "world pool" betting being trialed at Goodwood is that they are letting other countries bet into our existing pools ? Or a separately run thing
 
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In a way I'm glad I'm old and not got long to go as all this modern technology and all these do gooders and woke brigade,kids getting stabbed,people being scammed,wolf whistle or shout get your t*ts out and you get done for sexual harassment. Say a wrong word to someone and get done for racism.and people complaining when we put up a union jack in our own country.
So Englands just scored and she took her top off,fair play.anyway where was I.oh yes by the time racing ends I will be dead and gone.
Just hope I make it through to next years gold cup.
 
In a way I'm glad I'm old and not got long to go as all this modern technology and all these do gooders and woke brigade,kids getting stabbed,people being scammed,wolf whistle or shout get your t*ts out and you get done for sexual harassment. Say a wrong word to someone and get done for racism.and people complaining when we put up a union jack in our own country.
So Englands just scored and she took her top off,fair play.anyway where was I.oh yes by the time racing ends I will be dead and gone.
Just hope I make it through to next years gold cup.
 
Outsider said:
In a way I'm glad I'm old and not got long to go as all this modern technology and all these do gooders and woke brigade,kids getting stabbed,people being scammed,wolf whistle or shout get your t*ts out and you get done for sexual harassment. Say a wrong word to someone and get done for racism.and people complaining when we put up a union jack in our own country.
So Englands just scored and she took her top off,fair play.anyway where was I.oh yes by the time racing ends I will be dead and gone.
Just hope I make it through to next years gold cup.
Click to expand...

You will, you will, you’ve got AP tickets running :)
 
Danny said:
Can someone explain to me as I've been out of the loop a while what is "The gambling white paper" from what I've just glanced at its a bill being postponed on internet gambling. Is it set to put heavy restrictions on online gambling or any chance of a ban like what happened in the states ?

Also I'm out the loop with the politics of racing but as usual it seems a bit of common sense among a few forumites who love the game make a lot more sense than anything the top brass will come up with.

As for the punting side of things I'd be all for a pool betting only system with more reasonable deductions and always thought for the general public added value pots whether it be jackpots, trifectas with proper organised and better advertised rollovers is the way forward.

Also just to add I've just read something about the "world pool" betting being trialed at Goodwood is that they are letting other countries bet into our existing pools ? Or a separately run thing
Click to expand...
From what little I know, the 'white paper' is just the nanny state trying to show they care about inveterate gamblers doing their pieces online, and is shoved onto the backburner because bookies and punters are up in arms about the proposal to ensure that people can afford to lose by checking their finances, and has as much chance of flying as a penguin.
AFAIAA, the "World Pool" has been in operation for a while, and was set up to milk the lucrative Hong Kong/Far East betting market and only operates on major days that are likely to engender interest from that quarter.
Doubt pool betting would ever catch on here, unless the alternatives are legislated out of business, but that's just my opinion.
 
Danny said:
Can someone explain to me as I've been out of the loop a while what is "The gambling white paper" from what I've just glanced at its a bill being postponed on internet gambling. Is it set to put heavy restrictions on online gambling or any chance of a ban like what happened in the states ?

Also I'm out the loop with the politics of racing but as usual it seems a bit of common sense among a few forumites who love the game make a lot more sense than anything the top brass will come up with.

As for the punting side of things I'd be all for a pool betting only system with more reasonable deductions and always thought for the general public added value pots whether it be jackpots, trifectas with proper organised and better advertised rollovers is the way forward.

Also just to add I've just read something about the "world pool" betting being trialed at Goodwood is that they are letting other countries bet into our existing pools ? Or a separately run thing
Click to expand...
From what little I know, the 'white paper' is just the nanny state trying to show they care about inveterate gamblers doing their pieces online, and is shoved onto the backburner because bookies and punters are up in arms about the proposal to ensure that people can afford to lose by checking their finances, and has as much chance of flying as a penguin.
AFAIAA, the "World Pool" has been in operation for a while, and was set up to milk the lucrative Hong Kong/Far East betting market and only operates on major days that are likely to engender interest from that quarter.
Doubt pool betting would ever catch on here, unless the alternatives are legislated out of business, but that's just my opinion.
 
I've been missing for a few days, so apologies I haven't responded Reet. It's also a bit of 'summer-syndrome' with the lack of response generally I suspect.

It amazes me that an entire industry can be so blind to the dangers around them. Racing faces a very real threat to it's existence, yet the same faces that seem to lead it towards it's demise each time are the faces who lead these things. Essentially the entire fractured industry can't see its arse from its elbow. It needs to take a big step back, recognise it's issues, and have a structured plan to address them as close to simultaneously as practical. Racing makes a series of one off decisions that have little or no impact that take it further away from where it needs to be.

It also needs to grow some balls and take on the bookmaking industry that both bleeds it dry, and at the same time sucks up gambling addicts, but bins its successful punters. The bookmaking industry makes billions combined, and they should be made to pay heavily to support the industry that provides easily the largest percentage of its profits. The quickest way to do that is to take the product away from them. Prizemoney is on the floor anyway, so there isn't exactly a whole lot to lose by going full on attack. Denise and her cronies should stump up their fair share or just **** off.
 
Thanks Maruco - it seems our NH brethren are still in hibernation, but I doubt they'll be spared the fallout from this pernicious plan.
Whatever it takes to wrest control of the programme back from the bookies is fine and legitimate to me.
 
I often think that mainstream gambling advertising in 2022 will be featured in one of those 'Erin Brokovicth ' or tabacco promotion type movies (Insider, Russell Crowe) when 2052 rolls around. Big Corp slash and burn. It's immoral, filthy.

I agree with DO, etc, TOTE, Exchange and divil take the hindmost.

(ps.. see what a rationally argued, intelligent thread looks like??? I'm looking at you....)
 
Maruco said:

The bookmaking industry makes billions combined, and they should be made to pay heavily to support the industry that provides easily the largest percentage of its profits. The quickest way to do that is to take the product away from them.
Click to expand...

Not sure that is correct anymore, admittedly I have not been in a betting shop for probably 5 years now, but I used to see a lot of money going in the fruit machines and people doing impossible accas on football bets.
 
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