jft2005
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its only banter, im called the lout!
Racism
- Thread starter rorydelargy
- Start date
Interesting Channel 4 received 922 complaints saying that Ms Parr should not have been evicted 
and
68 messages from viewers who said they thought the broadcaster had responded correctly
Above from Aertel
Ceefax reports that part of her defence in her apology was that the word was "a friendly term" where she came from.
"Friendly term" ???????? 
and
68 messages from viewers who said they thought the broadcaster had responded correctly
Above from Aertel
Ceefax reports that part of her defence in her apology was that the word was "a friendly term" where she came from.
"Friendly term" ????????
A
Ardross
Guest
A real problem is that the word racism - with its extremely pejorative connotations is a word associated with racial motivation rather than discrimination on racial grounds . Both have to be tackled . Sometimes calling the latter racists is counter productive as it leads to highly defensive conduct and the tedious resort to balming it all on " political correctness " when it is a serious problem in its own right .
I am afraid any "satirical "postings here, capable of interpretation as racist abuse or racist in content and intent will go or be edited .
Desert Orchid
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Regardless of intent, if you ever call me that in my presence you'll promptly receive a right hook. I find it grossly offensive.
Unfortunately, a lot of the people who could answer that question best - as I'm fairly certain none of us have been on the receiving end of truly offensive, racially-targetted remarks - are dead, as a result of brutal attacks made on them because of their colour or racial background. Race isn't always black and white, or even 'yellow' or 'brown'.
We all know that the word 'nigger' is derogatory, derived from the racially-defining word 'negro', but used previously and extensively as an insult, particularly beloved of such white delights as the Ku Klux Klan and other supremacist groups. Maybe none of us on here is of negroid origin, even partially, so we can all wonder what's so bad about the use of the word when black or mixed-race people use it to one another. That's the satirical part, folks, for those of you who just don't get the joke. It's using a historically vicious insult to show that it no longer has a sting. In today's more racially-integrated schools, it may even be that some white kids who are friends with non-white kids are permitted by the latter to use it, since the INTENT is not to DELIBERATELY INSULT on the grounds of race alone.
Being called a 'white bint' becomes insulting only if it's aimed to derogate the girl's race. For the record, the perhaps unattractive-sounding Arabic word 'bint' means only 'girl'. There's really no insult inherent in it. It came into occasional use after the desert campaigns of the Second World War, all part of a long British tradition of borrowing words from wherever we've been, usually mangling them a bit, and incorporating them into common usage; hence 'char' from 'chai' for tea, 'khazi' for lavatory (although khazis were really communal washing or bathing rooms), and further direct borrowings from India with chukka and jodphurs.
We might wonder, apart from racial insults, why there's a fascination particularly in rap songs with using derogatory terms for women? 'Ho', surely everyone knows by now, is short for 'whore' and 'bitch' is so common as to be almost everyday among certain types. And we all must be aware that the 'c' word is being plugged relentlessly by so-called trendy types - mostly young males - as if this doesn't represent verbal abuse. Yet why aren't we women deciding to become enraged by these gender-specific insults, and taking the record companies to court for the general degradation of womanhood? Why is low-class vilification of women permitted and even encouraged?
We all know that the word 'nigger' is derogatory, derived from the racially-defining word 'negro', but used previously and extensively as an insult, particularly beloved of such white delights as the Ku Klux Klan and other supremacist groups. Maybe none of us on here is of negroid origin, even partially, so we can all wonder what's so bad about the use of the word when black or mixed-race people use it to one another. That's the satirical part, folks, for those of you who just don't get the joke. It's using a historically vicious insult to show that it no longer has a sting. In today's more racially-integrated schools, it may even be that some white kids who are friends with non-white kids are permitted by the latter to use it, since the INTENT is not to DELIBERATELY INSULT on the grounds of race alone.
Being called a 'white bint' becomes insulting only if it's aimed to derogate the girl's race. For the record, the perhaps unattractive-sounding Arabic word 'bint' means only 'girl'. There's really no insult inherent in it. It came into occasional use after the desert campaigns of the Second World War, all part of a long British tradition of borrowing words from wherever we've been, usually mangling them a bit, and incorporating them into common usage; hence 'char' from 'chai' for tea, 'khazi' for lavatory (although khazis were really communal washing or bathing rooms), and further direct borrowings from India with chukka and jodphurs.
We might wonder, apart from racial insults, why there's a fascination particularly in rap songs with using derogatory terms for women? 'Ho', surely everyone knows by now, is short for 'whore' and 'bitch' is so common as to be almost everyday among certain types. And we all must be aware that the 'c' word is being plugged relentlessly by so-called trendy types - mostly young males - as if this doesn't represent verbal abuse. Yet why aren't we women deciding to become enraged by these gender-specific insults, and taking the record companies to court for the general degradation of womanhood? Why is low-class vilification of women permitted and even encouraged?
Shadow Leader
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Just a quick point - do you seriously think "white bint" wasn't used in an attempt to be derogatory? What if someone had been called a "black bint"? You can bet your bottom dollar all hell would have broken loose then. (and yes, bint might be an Arabic word meaning girl but it is commonly used as a derogatory term).
cricketfan
At the Start
Is it because most (but not all) of those using the words 'ho' and 'bitch' in their music are black and it is politically incorrect to question their freedom of expression ? Or maybe even though it is ok to question, those who might are worried that if they do they will be tarred with the racist brush ?
Well, it's odd that black women, usually vociferous in asserting their rights in the USA, haven't broken up the studios or the concerts where this bile is spouted. I'm surprised that black people haven't thought that it represents them as every bit as spiteful, mean-minded, as the whites of low intelligence who've provoked them for so long. They insult all women, it seems - not just black or white, but the lot. And yet I'm sure they've been supported at home by strong mothers, who might, you'd have thought, have given their boyz a slap for dissing them and their 'sisters' so much.
Just thinking that rap music is nasty about women isn't enough of a reaction. A few high-level court cases ought to put a stop to the infantile blabber, although the sight of one of the rappers' grannies handbagging him would be most acceptable!
Just thinking that rap music is nasty about women isn't enough of a reaction. A few high-level court cases ought to put a stop to the infantile blabber, although the sight of one of the rappers' grannies handbagging him would be most acceptable!
Desert Orchid
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I don't see the difference between that and being called a 'Fenian B@stard', a remark with which I grew up being directed at me. I was called it as recently as within the last year.
I don't see the difference between that and being called a 'Fenian B@stard', a remark with which I grew up being directed at me. I was called it as recently as within the last year. [/b][/quote]
One has an overtly religious connurtation through association, where as the other is purely 'race'. The conversation invariably goes in this area as the definition of racial group becomes blurred and then ends up verging into religion, (possibly the route of a lot of racism anyway?) nationalism and even regionalism.
Being called a brummie b@astard is not racist, (unless someone can prove that natives of Birmingham are a unique and different ethnic classification)
Being called a Fenian b@astard similarly is not racist (though it overlaps a bit more). The race is still caucascian, although the Irish are normally classified as an ethnic minority these days, in much the same way as "other white European" seems to have appeared on equal opp's forms. IMO, this owes more to nationalism and religion, which is slightly distinct from race. As such religious discrimination creeps in as the more appropriate vehicle to challenge it with.
To answer the original question about what is racism?;
The answer lies in what the beholder believes any remark or action to be, which is where any investigation starts from thus. It's far from perfect, and I'd be lying if I said I haven't seen trumped cases, been on the receiving end of them, and indeed trumped them up myself in the past, as I said, it's far from perfect.
There is another phenonema which is increasingly impacting in the work place which we're not allowed to acknowledge (by and large) which I'll loosely call 'black on black' racism, though since moving South I've encountered it less (there might be an altogether different reason why though, which might owe more to the recruitment and awareness training practices). Mind you, you are talking to the shop steward who tried to put Hinduism through the corporate grievance procedure :laughing: Luckily the complainent (under external pressure) withdrew before it got too feisty.
In a work place context;
I'd expect to get the person off who called you a Brummie Barstool Mike, although I'd expect them to take a verbal warning about their conduct etc
Fenian? Wouldn't like to say, would depend on context and previous, I'd be struggling to defend them, but would again expect to get them off with either first or final written, dependent as I said.
Black B@astard? they'd have to have a very good medical reason or mitigating circumstances along these lines for me to stand a chance, and I've certainly pushed less through to summary dismissal before now, when in the role of prosecutor so to speak.
FWIW incidentally Kriz, If I put the effort in, I can tan very nicely and have thus been subjected to racist abuse before now (not very often). It was more of an eye opener, but then I had the security of knowing I wasn't, and so wouldn't face it on regular basis. Mind you it probably says a little bit about the folks of Middlesborough too, (or at least some of their football fans)
In South Africa, if you worked for any group associated with bettering the lives of the indigenous tribes, you were hissed at for being a 'kaffir lover', mostly by the kafirs themselves, the Afrikaaners. Funny how a word which means 'foreigner' got turned around like that! I've been surprised to see how many white people are intermarrying with Africans in their own countries now - just 30 years ago that would've been considered extremely low 'class' (for the white), no matter that they might be considerably less well-educated than the African. When things have moved on that much in non-European countries, I'm constantly bemused by how attitudes are still so primitive here.
DO, I don't suppose, though, that as a Fenian b@stard in Scotland, you were denied a proper education, the right to queue for goods in the same line as other people, had to carry a pass card, couldn't get a job which offered you the same pay as a non-Fenian (b@stard or not), had few chances of job advancement against the non-Fenians, and restricted your right to be out and about at night wherever your fancy took you? Just a few examples of what racism meant (and still means, given the chance) - without even dipping one's toe into the water of American lynchings, church burnings, house and school bombings.
DO, I don't suppose, though, that as a Fenian b@stard in Scotland, you were denied a proper education, the right to queue for goods in the same line as other people, had to carry a pass card, couldn't get a job which offered you the same pay as a non-Fenian (b@stard or not), had few chances of job advancement against the non-Fenians, and restricted your right to be out and about at night wherever your fancy took you? Just a few examples of what racism meant (and still means, given the chance) - without even dipping one's toe into the water of American lynchings, church burnings, house and school bombings.
I find black people themselves using the N-word pretty unacceptable, it's an act of verbal aggression in any context, in my thinking. Some black people can be just as racist as those they accuse, eg there have been many instances in the last several years of black anti-semitism. So the supposed 'satire' of so called n*gga-rap don;t wash with me, honey.... As for the girl on BB [I'm not watching so didn't see any of it 'in context'] - she must surely have known this was a no-no; there isn't a soul in the country who doesn't know you can't use this word without being provocative. Or do the young truly speak a different language? - that's possible too.
On the other hand, I can't see what is offensive per se about the word Paki. It's just short for Pakistani, ie a literal description, and that was its original usage. It's ludicrous to me that the media and the politically correct brigade have allowed this apellation to become a racist label; the agressive intention of some users should have just been ignored. If I said - and I used to back in the 80s - that the owners of the corner shop in Fulham where I lived were Pakis, I intended no discourtesy - I both liked and admired the family
On the other hand, I can't see what is offensive per se about the word Paki. It's just short for Pakistani, ie a literal description, and that was its original usage. It's ludicrous to me that the media and the politically correct brigade have allowed this apellation to become a racist label; the agressive intention of some users should have just been ignored. If I said - and I used to back in the 80s - that the owners of the corner shop in Fulham where I lived were Pakis, I intended no discourtesy - I both liked and admired the family
Harbinger
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Regardless of it's origins, when a word is consistently used by those partaking in racial or sectarian abuse, it becomes offensive very very quickly. See also: 'fenian'. It has absolutely nothing to do with sodding 'political correctness'.
I'd imagine it's pretty hard to ignore it when the people using it are simultaneously kicking your head in, and you then have to spend the next two days trying to remove it from where it was daubed on the window of your shop - usually with the addendum 'go home'.
It's my age; also the kind of [sheltered!] world I live in. And I go out of my way to avoid the other kind... I just never meet the kind of people who would use either Paki or Fenian to mean anything other than Pakistani, or, well, Irishman of a Fenian disposition!
I do take your point though, and try to remember these days that Paki is a term of abuse to most people, however mystifying I find that.
I do take your point though, and try to remember these days that Paki is a term of abuse to most people, however mystifying I find that.
cricketfan
At the Start
In the Surrey v Essex match on Sunday, a member of the crowd called South African bowler Andre Nel a Kaffir (I can't admit to knowing what one was until Krizons post). A member of the crowd turned to the abuse hurler and told him that it was, at the very least, rude and offensive. The lout was turfed out.
Had this been a black player who was called a n1gger, I would have seen it as far, far more offensive, but that is because I know the connetations (sp?). But if the offender had said that, would he have faced a bigger charge than mere ejection ?
But in Australia the winter before last, it was reported that a large proportion of the crowds were shouting similar things to the SA team, more than likely in ignorance. Doesn't mean it can be excused, but at least it was dealt to an extent with in UK.
With regards to the term Paki, I have been brought up to see it as offensive rather than an abbreviation and wouldn't dream of using it. But what I would like to know is where the line is drawn between Paki, Taffy, Sweaty, Northern, Southern, Brummie, English, Aussie, or Kiwi if you add the word b@stard to the end of it ? (Apart from the fact that calling someone a b@stard is intended to offend).
Had this been a black player who was called a n1gger, I would have seen it as far, far more offensive, but that is because I know the connetations (sp?). But if the offender had said that, would he have faced a bigger charge than mere ejection ?
But in Australia the winter before last, it was reported that a large proportion of the crowds were shouting similar things to the SA team, more than likely in ignorance. Doesn't mean it can be excused, but at least it was dealt to an extent with in UK.
With regards to the term Paki, I have been brought up to see it as offensive rather than an abbreviation and wouldn't dream of using it. But what I would like to know is where the line is drawn between Paki, Taffy, Sweaty, Northern, Southern, Brummie, English, Aussie, or Kiwi if you add the word b@stard to the end of it ? (Apart from the fact that calling someone a b@stard is intended to offend).
Desert Orchid
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Firstly, to Warbler: I don't see the difference. They all come under the umbrella of intolerance.
Krizon, the only reason I wasn't denied a 'proper' education is that Catholics had to fight for their own schools because they weren't allowed to attend state schools. Who's to know for sure the situation would be different if that hadn't happened?
The history of job discrimination against Catholics in the West of Scotland is well documented. When my brother was Christened my uncle lamented to my mother, "Why did you call him that? He'll never get a job." My niece, a Law graduate from Glasgow University, was told as recently as three years ago by one of the professors not to expect to be employed by many of the big firms in this part of the world purely on account of her religion.
As a youngster, I had to be careful which routes I chose or risk being attacked by anti-Catholic youths.
Colin Phillips
At the Start
They weren't anti-catholic, they just didn't like little ginger snots!!!! 
DO, very interesting and dismally enlightening stuff, but while it's all part of the very big compass of 'discrimination', it's not racism per se. Religious divide seems to be the issue, which would be in play no matter what colour your skin or hair.
Cricketfan, yes, the word 'kaffir' was used extensively as an insult to all indigenous Africans by many of the Afrikaaners, and 'kaffir lover' to anyone - especially the incoming British - with more liberal views (hard not to have!) on matters of race. It's the insult equivalent of 'nigger' although you will find the word 'kafir' (pro. 'kaffeer' and not 'kaffa') correctly used in the Asian continent as meaning something, particularly someone, foreign. You literally only had to treat your domestic servant politely, offer to help a heavily-laden African with a load, for someone to consider you were a 'kaffir lover', which was supposed to be someone hellbent on wrecking the Boer supremacist way of life, and close enough to treason.
Examples of racism in apartheid South Africa, where my parents and I arrived innocently in 1952, were: "Blankes" and "Nie Blankes" buses, "Blankes" and "Nie Blankes" park benches (I kid not!), drinking fountains, entrances to shops or for queues within shops and businesses such as post offices; lavatories, cafes, bars, restaurants, hotels - most of which were totally "Blankes" and "Nie Blankes" were forbidden entirely, except to work. Additionally, all Africans and mixed-raced ("coloureds") people had to carry government-issued pass cards if they were out past, I think, 10.30 p.m. Some Africans were employed in shift work, so they were constantly harrassed by the police to show their cards if found cycling home at, say, 4.00 a.m. My own uncle had to go to the police station to retrieve his housemaid, who'd been 'caught' at 11.30 p.m., her bus having broken down, necessitating her trying to walk home. He then drove her home, to the utter astonishment of the Afrikaaner policemen. It amazes me that indigenous South Africans, a huge number of whom carry such degrading memories, have been so forgiving of the regime which oppressed them in their own country.
Oh, and to top off this madness, the many Chinese in S.A. were termed 'honorary whites'!
Cricketfan, yes, the word 'kaffir' was used extensively as an insult to all indigenous Africans by many of the Afrikaaners, and 'kaffir lover' to anyone - especially the incoming British - with more liberal views (hard not to have!) on matters of race. It's the insult equivalent of 'nigger' although you will find the word 'kafir' (pro. 'kaffeer' and not 'kaffa') correctly used in the Asian continent as meaning something, particularly someone, foreign. You literally only had to treat your domestic servant politely, offer to help a heavily-laden African with a load, for someone to consider you were a 'kaffir lover', which was supposed to be someone hellbent on wrecking the Boer supremacist way of life, and close enough to treason.
Examples of racism in apartheid South Africa, where my parents and I arrived innocently in 1952, were: "Blankes" and "Nie Blankes" buses, "Blankes" and "Nie Blankes" park benches (I kid not!), drinking fountains, entrances to shops or for queues within shops and businesses such as post offices; lavatories, cafes, bars, restaurants, hotels - most of which were totally "Blankes" and "Nie Blankes" were forbidden entirely, except to work. Additionally, all Africans and mixed-raced ("coloureds") people had to carry government-issued pass cards if they were out past, I think, 10.30 p.m. Some Africans were employed in shift work, so they were constantly harrassed by the police to show their cards if found cycling home at, say, 4.00 a.m. My own uncle had to go to the police station to retrieve his housemaid, who'd been 'caught' at 11.30 p.m., her bus having broken down, necessitating her trying to walk home. He then drove her home, to the utter astonishment of the Afrikaaner policemen. It amazes me that indigenous South Africans, a huge number of whom carry such degrading memories, have been so forgiving of the regime which oppressed them in their own country.
Oh, and to top off this madness, the many Chinese in S.A. were termed 'honorary whites'!
The term 'nigger' is offensive in any context. When black people use it to address each other it is with a sense of irony, the way the term 'queer' came back into use among gays. Some people, though, including Barack Obama, think the joke has gone too far and think blacks in the US need to address each other, and treat each other, with more respect.