Red Rock Canyon - Will he finally break his duck?!

Isinglass said:
To be sure it is just a little race, but I do not agree that he struggled to win it. It's just a race, no big thing, but I can get excited about little things sometimes! :lol:
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Me too. Really glad to see hime finally get off the mark even if he didn't make it look really easy. From waht I could see, looked like he stayed on better than the second in the end.

Perhaps they have/will find a little place for him at stud. After all he's pretty well bred and his win tonight means three winners from four runners for Imagine and all three winners are stakes winners/placed. Plenty of time for Viscount Nelson to add to that.

Alternatively, I'll more than happily have him as a riding horse if they're stuck for a home for him :p
 
he had two stone in hand..should have been head in chest stuff

to be fair..when a horse has been used like he has they are lucky he will pass horses at all..as he usually passes them going backwards
 
EC1 said:
he had two stone in hand..should have been head in chest stuff

to be fair..when a horse has been used like he has they are lucky he will pass horses at all..as he usually passes them going backwards
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Agree entirely, there just wasn't anything in the race good enough to pass him.
 
imagine said:
Perhaps they have/will find a little place for him at stud. After all he's pretty well bred and his win tonight means three winners from four runners for Imagine and all three winners are stakes winners/placed. Plenty of time for Viscount Nelson to add to that.
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He's won a maiden as a 5yo, first win in 22 starts! I don't care if he's by Galileo out of Sadler's Wells, he has no place at stud whatsoever I'm afraid so far as I'm concerned. The industry is already full of piss poor stallions that shouldn't be standing as it is and they are only adding to the problem of over production of poor animals that the sport is riddled with.
 
Shadow Leader said:
He's won a maiden as a 5yo, first win in 22 starts! I don't care if he's by Galileo out of Sadler's Wells, he has no place at stud whatsoever I'm afraid so far as I'm concerned. The industry is already full of piss poor stallions that shouldn't be standing as it is and they are only adding to the problem of over production of poor animals that the sport is riddled with.
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100% agree with that
 
Shadow Leader said:
He's won a maiden as a 5yo, first win in 22 starts! I don't care if he's by Galileo out of Sadler's Wells, he has no place at stud whatsoever I'm afraid so far as I'm concerned. The industry is already full of piss poor stallions that shouldn't be standing as it is and they are only adding to the problem of over production of poor animals that the sport is riddled with.
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well put.
 
Plenty of others worse than him have had their chance and plenty of crap mares also. Lots take their chance in the breeding sheds/paddocks that haven't even set foot on the racecourse. Responsibility for over production lies with everybody, from those standing stallions and letting them cover huge books of mares, to people breeding from poor mares to those that purchase the ''crap'' that's produced. While I'm sure there's lots of people who dream of buying something cheap and hitting the big time chances of it happening are minimal. While people are prepared to take a chance in buying cheap there'll always be a market for it.
 
I agree his record is not great but then was he not continuously tried in contests where he was not meant to win? I thought that was the whole point - he's spent his life as a pacemaker. At least he has raced fairly often and we know he is sound, and well bred. Can't say that for the stallions who retire after breaking down at 2, or even 3 and only a few starts, and some of those are standing at the large studs.

I'm not saying he's a champ, it was just nice to see him win a race and interesting that he did actually go on and not wait for something to whizz past him as per usual. He's had a job to do and he has done it pretty well for ages. Better than a lot of racehorses who never get their head in front nor serve any useful purpose whatsoever.

I would not put him at stud, but then again, as said, there are worse ones who are there now. His genes could be useful, who knows? Not a science for sure and maybe Turkmenistan would like him! :lol:

Personally I'd think he would be better off gelded, as a hack and probably enjoy it. Has certainly earned a nice retirement and earned me a small packet tonite too.
 
If you cherry pick his form you would say he was placed in two Group Ones including third in an Irish Champion Stakes only beaten 3.5 lengths by Dylan Thomas.

He was also 4th in a King George beating Ask (G1 Winner since) and finished only a length behind Youzmain in the same race.

Considering his was used as a pacemaker in many of his races I would think he will show up somewhere at stud. There is some potential there.
 
Sorry, plenty better to breed from. Irish breeding in particular is well over-produced, with the resultant spectacle of max fields where 50% are shot to bits halfway through the races. There are already dozens of mediocre stallions standing, who throw too many ill-conformed foals or too many (by percentage of runs to wins) animals of very limited ability. The two main breeding bodies, ITBA and the TBA, can't seriously keep calling for better quality, the cull of poor/old mares, etc., without addressing the poor standard of many stallions. Adding another mediocre one to the list doesn't help at all and seems based on a sentimental view of the horse. You would want, at the least, one Group 1 and a couple of Group 2 wins and a scattering of places to take stud duties seriously. There are more than enough of those to choose from, and at much reduced fees.
 
I'm not entirely disagreeing with you but based on what you have said as to citeria for qualification to stand, animals such as Accordion would not have been allowed to stand and on the whole it could be argued that his presence in the gene pool has been a benefit.
 
G-G said:
I'm not entirely disagreeing with you but based on what you have said as to citeria for qualification to stand, animals such as Accordion would not have been allowed to stand and on the whole it could be argued that his presence in the gene pool has been a benefit.
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Exactly and he's just one example. Plenty of horses that are top class on the track also fail at stud and that applies to both sexes. Authorized's dam was unraced, I don't know why, but does that mean she shouldn't have taken her chance in the paddocks? Where exactly do you draw the line?

I'm not suggesting I'd use RRC myself as a stallion (still make me a nice riding horse;)) but there might be a place somewhere for him in the world and I guess if Coolmore were made an offer for him as a breeding prospect I doubt they'd turn the money down even if it wasn't in the best interests of the breed.
 
I still can't have him at stud; so far as I'm concerned he's not good enough, full stop. I agree with you Imagine that there are plenty of other poor stallions standing that shouldn't be covering mares for racing purposes but adding another poor quality sire just because there are others out there doesn't make it right.

There are too many poor mares being bred from as well, yes. However each poor mare can produce only one foal a year; a crap stallion can produce anything up to 100 (even more sometimes!) foals on the ground. Multiply that by the tens of crap stallions out there and you can easily see why the marketplace is awash with crap youngsters.

Somewhere along the line somebody has to stop and look at it and realise that something should be done about it.
 
If you cherry pick his form you would say he was placed in two Group Ones including third in an Irish Champion Stakes only beaten 3.5 lengths by Dylan Thomas.

He was also 4th in a King George beating Ask (G1 Winner since) and finished only a length behind Youzmain in the same race.

Considering his was used as a pacemaker in many of his races I would think he will show up somewhere at stud. There is some potential there.
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I agree.

The issue of over producing is a result of breeding mares who achieved nothing on the race course and/or are badly conformed.

This fella had an official rating of 115 at one stage so he has/had talent.
He raced 22 times without any absences so he would appear to be sound.
(unless someone knows better, I haven't seen him up close)

Although he does not appear to add anything pedigree wise to the gene pool in this part of the world, he is well bred, Rock of G out of imagine .

As we all know the best racehorses rarely make make the best stallions so unless someone has a crystal ball he's worth a shot if not in Europe than he would surely upgrade the stock some where less fortunate.
 
I'm quite liking this topic - lots of interesting debate which is good.

Some friends of mine, who admittedly I haven't seen for quite a while, have recently sent a home bred 4yo filly into training out of a mare that did race but did absolutely nothing on the track. Sounds like a bad idea doesn't it? However, the mare transfered to life as a riding horse really well and has competed reasonably successfully in riding club competitions. As far as I'm aware, if the filly doesn't make the grade on the track she'll be going down a similar route to her dam as a riding horse. Although personally I wouldn't have bred from the mare in the first place, I guess they are perhaps slightly more responsible owners than some in that she'll have a home for life if she's uselss. Pity the same can't be said for everyone else.

Definitely an issue that needs addressing though.
 
On a slightly related issue, a friend of a friend of mine breeds decent horses down in Kildare. He has bred a number of black type horses from a handful of related mares (two of whom have black type in their own right).

He made the point that a number of his stock are going to India at the moment and he made the point that they are investing heavily in bloodstock at the moment relative to the traditional buyers.

Any other evidence of this?
 
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