Road to the 2022 Champion Hurdle

[Tanlic]

The winner of a very ordinary Supreme whos future they decided was not over hurdles but fences that hasn't seen a racecourse for a year
taking on the winner of 14 consecutive races including 10 Grade 1's.

Like Gaza I think I have afair idea how good she is.

 

[Euronymous]

All true but you have to ask this question at the odds, what is the best horse she's beaten?

 

[Double J]

All true but you have to ask this question at the odds, what is the best horse she's beaten?

Still don’t think she’d have beaten Benie under different rides.

Its a poor 2m division and shes exploiting it. I really want to take her on but there is nothing to take her on with. Might get a price for the Champion Hurdle, think people will get stuck into Appreciate It.

 

[Tanlic]

To anwer you both guys........DJ that was then this is now she has improved out of all recognition since so what your saying is irrellevant.

What the best horse she's beaten? A very very good one is the answer.

Suppose for a minute she hadn't some on the Champion Hurdle scene when she did.

Sharjah would have destroyed the previous years Champion Hurdle winner and then beat her even further in the PP CHampion Hurdle gone on to win the Morgiana
Sharjah would be hailed as a true Champion Yes/No?

Then for talking sake, along comes Honeysuckle and she absolutely destroys him when he's attempting to win his 4th Matheson Hurdle.

You can bet your ass everyone would be saying she must be out of the world to have beaten the regning champion so easily.

 

[reet hard]

I'm with Euro on this, but there's every chance she'll not have much to beat in this year's edition, either.

 

[Outsider]

I took 8/1 Appreciate it.just thought it was the only alternative to honeysuckle.

 

[Tanlic]

Those that doubt her greatness will of course say she neat nothing if Appreciate It finishes 2nd by. pointing out he was off the track for a year. Having backed her at 11/4 down to most rates against I am very happy but of I had I couldn't back against her not even ew...if You back a horse at 8/1 EW you don't believe can win then I find that kinda silly...100 ew 1/5th the odds horse finishes 3rd you get 260 pounds back....,200 on honeysuckle at 1/2 you get 300 back....is how I look at it

 

[Grasshopper]

Those that doubt her greatness will of course say she neat nothing if Appreciate It finishes 2nd by.

The highest-rated horse she has ever beaten is Sharjah at 165 - getting a 7lbs allowance each time she has despatched him.

Contrast that with the types of horses Hurricane Fly used to beat. Jezki (top-rated OR of 169), Artic Fire (169), Rock On Ruby (170), Solwhit (168), Binocular (171).....I could go on and on.

She is a great racemare, but has she achieved "greatness"? On the ratings, at least, she self-evidently falls some way short.

 

[Desert Orchid]

Honeysuckle is a high-class performer in her own right but she's very fortunate to be around in a moderate era and getting 7lbs from those moderate opponents.

An upgrade on Flakey Dove, though...

 

[barjon]

You can only beat what’s put in front of you and she has fourteen times on the trot. That’ll do for me

 

[edgt]

One thought, Willie brought Annie Power and Benie de Dieux to Festival with no prep; both fell at last , near identical falls caused by a shadow at take off side.
Let us hope the sun doesn't shine too soon on them.

 

[Beef or Salmon]

The highest-rated horse she has ever beaten is Sharjah at 165 - getting a 7lbs allowance each time she has despatched him.

Contrast that with the types of horses Hurricane Fly used to beat. Jezki (top-rated OR of 169), Artic Fire (169), Rock On Ruby (170), Solwhit (168), Binocular (171).....I could go on and on.

She is a great racemare, but has she achieved "greatness"? On the ratings, at least, she self-evidently falls some way short.

And the same accusations were laid at the hoofs of The Fly as well - what's he beaten, beating the same horses over and over blaa blaa....

And she hasn't simply 'beaten' Sharjah, she has spanked him with a combined winning margin of 40 lenghts over 4 runs.

Exceptional mare who simply just gets the job done every single time.

 

[Tanlic]

This mentioning of her 7lb allowance really gets my back up

She's a mare and she gets an allowance end of story

In one race she beat a 158 horse and a 164 horse by 10 lengths and 29 lengths and the handicapper put her up 2lbs
which is complete nonsense..so please stop with the ratings.

Right now she is the best we have seen ina very long time and she has done everything asked of her inclding dethroning a pervious Champion Hurdle winner.

Her time in the race if a favourable with previous winners like Grassy's precious Hurrican Fly so until she is beaten enjoy her for what she is.

Those moderate opponent DO mentions are those the ones he has backed? If they are all that moderate he could have had 3/1 for all the cash he has wasted.

My only concern is something prevents her from turning up but if she does all te ratings in China won't stop her hacking up again

 

[wilsonl]

I doubt many would argue that Istabraq was a great despite twice beating up Theatreworld in the Champion Hurdle.

If Honeysuckle wins a second Champion hurdle then she’ll have every right to be classed in the same category.

 

[Grasshopper]

The debate about 'greatness' in racehorses, almost always ends up with people sitting in one of two camps; those who use ratings as a measure, and those who use a different measure (G1 Festival wins etc).

For me, the former is a more objective measure to use, and the latter a more subjective measure.......though ratings themselves are also subjective to a degree.

The truth, however, is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and - ultimately - there is no right or wrong.

 

[Tanlic]

There's no right or wrong is a cop out.Hands up anyone who doubted Arkle Kauto Star or Sprinter Sacre were true champions.

If you did then let me tell you there were no two camps involved just sensible racing people and ididots

Too many don't look beyond the end of there nose. Personally I like to look at thing from different views.

For example Istabraq won the Champion Hurdle in 1999 on good to soft ground and he took 40 seconds from the 2nd last to the winning post.

Honeysuckle won the 2021 Champion Hurdle on sift ground and she took 38 seconds from the 2nd last to the winning post.


Ok it doesn't really prove anything but there is no doubt in my mind this mare is top class with speed to burn
that would have taken the beating in any Champion Hurdle you care to mention

 

[Grasshopper]

Hands up anyone who doubted Arkle Kauto Star or Sprinter Sacre were true champions.

If you did then let me tell you there were no two camps involved just sensible racing people and ididots

No-one questioned that these horses were true greats, because not only did they win multiple Championship races, they also punched-up massive ratings whilst they went about it.

As for the cop-out statement, I think you've missed the point I was trying to get across.

 

[Grey]

As the saying goes, some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Sometimes people know the ratings of every horse without seeing their true merit. Honeysuckle is an unusually good mare with a rare turn of foot that no horse she has met has been able to match. I think she is well worth celebrating.

 

[Grasshopper]

I can’t have that Arthur.

No-one here has suggested anything other than Honeysuckle is a great racemare, and clearly the best 2m hurdler of her generation.

But when Tanlic starts prattling on about her “greatness” and how she will win four Champion Hurdles, we are all entitled to place such extreme assertions in context.

This doesn’t devalue in any way what the mare has achieved in her career - it attempts only to establish her historical place.

Any attempt to place her beyond criticism should be regarded as unwelcome; both in the here-and-now, and further down the line.

 

[Tanlic]

That would be the same Tanlic that said Binocular would win a Champio Hurdle right after his very first race as a novice that you never stopped slagging and are still wiping the egg off your face from. and you are contesting my judgement? As far as History goes she's already rewritten the history books as the first horse to win 14 hurdle races unbeaten...maybe you missed that?

You have forever been telling us how good Hurricane Fly was and yes he was probably one of the most consistant hurdlers of all time but for a minute put that aside as he ran iwice as many times as Honeysuckle has to date..

Lets just compare their Champion Hurdles.

Hurrican Fly 2011 Good Ground clocked a time of 3m 53.71s.
The Suprme was run in 3m 52.10s

Honeysuckle 2021 Soft Ground clocked a time of 3m 54.63s
The Supreme was run in 3m 56.32s

Hurricane Fly 2013 Soft Ground Clocked a time of 3m 59.35s
The Supreme was run in 3m 55.60s

No matter how you want to crack it Honeysuckles performance was head and shoulders above that of Hurrcane Fly who was given a 172 for his CH win unless you start yout 7lb allowance nonsence

The truth is when the HRI Programmes Committee decided to increase the Allowance from 5 to 7lbs mares had been shown to be struggling to win anything especially in NH racing
This was done after months and months of reasearch whereas you guys who say it's unfair or use it was a weapon to degrade a horse haven't studied didly sh*t.

Trainers since have decided to take the chance and run their best mares in Champion Hurdles and so far they have won 3 Champion Hurdles the boys 8..prior to this only 3 had won in 100 years so someone got the allowance right I would say

 

[JamesRB]

This mentioning of her 7lb allowance really gets my back up

She's a mare and she gets an allowance end of story

agree with this. was the same when Annie Power won her big races, the allowance is there for a reason and using exceptional horses to try and make a point that it gives them some kind of unfair advantage is nonsense imo. if the allowance was so unfair why don't mares win loads more grade 1s?

 

[Desert Orchid]

agree with this. was the same when Annie Power won her big races, the allowance is there for a reason and using exceptional horses to try and make a point that it gives them some kind of unfair advantage is nonsense imo. if the allowance was so unfair why don't mares win loads more grade 1s?

I think this is missing the point, to be honest.

While accepting the 'it's there, accept it' fact of the matter, it has to be remembered the reason why it's there in the first place.

It's data-driven computer output concluding that because of their natural physical inferiority females can't compete with males on equal terms. You wouldn't ask Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce to compete on even terms with Usain Bolt. You'd have to give her something like eight metres of a start. So the computer reckons that there's an average of 7lbs difference in NH racehorses. (It's probably marginally less but rounded to 7lbs to incentivise mixed races.) Without the allowance - that's exactly what it is, an allowance - they wouldn't be able to compete.

Honeysuckle is probably simply better than the current males so the allowance exaggerates her superiority. There's a fair chance something will come through maybe this festival, maybe next, that can give her the allowance and beat her but until they do she's entitled to be hailed and lauded for her achievements to date.

Glencarraig Lady won the 1972 Gold Cup beating The Dikler, Crisp, L'Escargot et al without any allowance. And she was only half the size of The Dikler. THAT was a great racemare!

There's also the commercial element, especially on the Flat, in order to incentivise competition at the top level. How many female Arc winners' successes could arguably be attributed to the allowance? Nearly all, I'd say.

 

[Tanlic]

Honeysuckle is probably simply better than the current males so the allowance exaggerates her superiority???

one minute he's saying it's fair then makes this stupid statement
Honeysuckle is a better horse than anything around it is that simple...The allowance if fair like he says in one breath has got **** all to do with it.

This just another ah yes but she's getting an allowance load of crap

 

[Grasshopper]

agree with this. was the same when Annie Power won her big races, the allowance is there for a reason and using exceptional horses to try and make a point that it gives them some kind of unfair advantage is nonsense imo. if the allowance was so unfair why don't mares win loads more grade 1s?

This again misses the point, I think.

A rating is simply a measure of performance - in handicap terms, framed around weight carried. If a mare carries 7lbs less than a gelding in a Grade 1 and dead-heats with that gelding, it will go into the record-books as a winner of the G1, but with a rating (all other things being equal) 7lbs lower than the gelding.

This is the critical part of the ‘ratings’ argument that appears to be lost on Tanlic, who seems unable to distinguish between the performance and the measure of the performance. Not that I’m entirely surprised, as he will apparently use ratings where they support his argument, and dismiss them as the work of nerds when they don’t.

His command of ratings appears to be as rudimentary as his command of the clock in NH races, as the argument offered above ably demonstrates; with simplistic comparisons offered as concrete proof. It’s frankly a joke.

As I’ve said before, Honeysuckle is a great racemare, and is clearly the best 2m hurdler of this generation. It will be a shock if anything can put a glove on her in the Champion Hurdle. But flights of fancy such as “I’ve backed her to win 4 Champion Hurdles” are just that, and if spurious arguments are going to be offered to justify such a bet, then I’ll continue to call them out.

 

[barjon]

Honeysuckle is probably simply better than the current males so the allowance exaggerates her superiority???

one minute he's saying it's fair then makes this stupid statement
Honeysuckle is a better horse than anything around it is that simple...The allowance if fair like he says in one breath has got **** all to do with it.

This just another ah yes but she's getting an allowance load of crap

Hey, calm down, tan. Why so aggressive.

I thought desert was supporting your view. Ie: it’s not the allowance that makes her better than anything around. I agree with him about the allowance in that she’d beat everything else by a few lengths less without it.