EC1
On a break
Carson seems to really want Hughes to win this..i'll laugh if Degas Art come and does him late on..just to give RM an outright win
Royal Ascot Day 5
- Thread starter Soary Stars
- Start date
Nefertiti
At the Start
Not sure either, but pretty sure they'll keep them apart. If Await The Dawn is programmed for the Breeders' Cup Classic they may aim him at a 10f race in the US prior to that - either the Arlington Million or perhaps one on dirt.
What is the Amico fritz club?!
Massive jumping to a conclusion imho. The horse looks all quality and there is every chance he didn't handle the ground - another day beckons.
Not at all - we were hearing on Tuesday morning british spinters were rubbish but they have won the 2 races - lets at least acknowledge them as the best this season, which is what they are.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
The jockey went too soon, something you can get away with in Australia on fast ground and a level finish. He'd be interesting in the July Cup.
I watched the horse closely all the way round and I thought Moore was uncomfortable after half a mile.As you know with me it's what I see as opposed to weights and measures and I am seeing a one paced horse in the middle of his 4yo campaign.There is so much bad racing these days it's possible he could win races but with the connections he has I can't see them persevering.
Gamla Stan
At the Start
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 4,337
Four of the first five in the King's Stand were trained outside of the UK. Since 2000 there have been more foreign winners of the race than British winners.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Has this lack of success got anything to do with how we're breeding them? Pivotal and Oasis Dream are both based in the UK and I was just wondering if they're mainly covering mares with staying backgrounds?
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Probably Euro - we don't breed sprinters in the UK (well we don't breed top class ones anyway).
I doubt there's any breeder who says "I know what I want, a July Cup winner" even when they do get one they send them to miler/routers - horses in Australia in particular are bred with one of two races in mind, the Melbourne Cup or the Golden Slipper and if it's the latter then you're likely to end up with a sprinter of some description whether it's any good or not.
HK trainers and agents often source some of the less exposed sprinters in Australia and Europe for export to race over there - they're generally prepped with only sprint races in mind (HK Sprint, Chairmans Sprint Prize, Centenary Sprint etc.) and as such are targeted at these races (or the lesser sprints) from the moment they're imported.
UK sprinters did well this year but Society Rock in particular had done well last year and there was more than enough value around in the Sprint Markets, see the 33/1 Sweet Sanette which a number on this thread took and the 50's and 40's about Amico Fritz available earlier in the week about a horse who wasn't beaten far in the race last year and was in good form going into yesterdays race.
The French Champion Hurdle yesterday is another example of punters piling into horses purely on the basis of knowing who they are and comparing them to what they have done on a UK course rather than taking into account the race conditions, way the race will be run, jockeys course knowledge, long season etc.
FWIW I find these big International sprints are easily the best betting mediums and it's not hard to find horses that are massively overpriced (One World, Alverta, Let Me Fight, Amico Fritz and Sweet Sanette for example).
I doubt there's any breeder who says "I know what I want, a July Cup winner" even when they do get one they send them to miler/routers - horses in Australia in particular are bred with one of two races in mind, the Melbourne Cup or the Golden Slipper and if it's the latter then you're likely to end up with a sprinter of some description whether it's any good or not.
HK trainers and agents often source some of the less exposed sprinters in Australia and Europe for export to race over there - they're generally prepped with only sprint races in mind (HK Sprint, Chairmans Sprint Prize, Centenary Sprint etc.) and as such are targeted at these races (or the lesser sprints) from the moment they're imported.
UK sprinters did well this year but Society Rock in particular had done well last year and there was more than enough value around in the Sprint Markets, see the 33/1 Sweet Sanette which a number on this thread took and the 50's and 40's about Amico Fritz available earlier in the week about a horse who wasn't beaten far in the race last year and was in good form going into yesterdays race.
The French Champion Hurdle yesterday is another example of punters piling into horses purely on the basis of knowing who they are and comparing them to what they have done on a UK course rather than taking into account the race conditions, way the race will be run, jockeys course knowledge, long season etc.
FWIW I find these big International sprints are easily the best betting mediums and it's not hard to find horses that are massively overpriced (One World, Alverta, Let Me Fight, Amico Fritz and Sweet Sanette for example).
Come on, Hamm, we already have Big Mac for this kind of carry on.
Colin Phillips
At the Start
Interesting piece by Nic Doggett? on the Sporting Life site on lessons to be learned from this year's meeting:
The race schedule needs addressing
The race planners need to look at rescheduling some of the big races. Twice the number of people attended on Saturday as Tuesday, but with the Golden Jubilee not at it's zenith at present, the racecard was not befitting of a 70,000+ crowd. Three Group Ones to start the meeting means it begins with a bang, however the feeling afterwards is almost that of a tyre with a slow puncture. At present there are seven Group One races, and a more even spread would help to ensure that the five days of Royal Ascot feel more like a pleasure rather than a stretch. Although some may worry about the prospect of 30+ runners storming down the track on day one, the Royal Hunt Cup would be an ideal race for the opening day, with either the St James's Palace or Queen Anne more deserving of a bigger audience at the weekend.
Frankel is not unbeatable
Henry Cecil's colt has won all seven of his starts but, arguably for the first time, he finished the St James's Palace with an air of vulnerability. He got the run of the race yet his winning distance was a diminishing three parts of a length. Many feel that as he settled better, now is the time to execute more patient waiting tactics, however it appears that the bunch are catching him up. On quicker ground I believe Zoffany can beat him, whilst Excelebration did ever so well to finish third considering Richard Hughes and Dubawi Gold almost put him through the rail at halfway. A clash with Canford Cliffs is in the offing, however, much like the Prix Jacques Le Marois last season where Makfi surprised Goldikova and Paco Boy, don't be surprised if A. N. Other wins the Sussex Stakes.
Pacemaking duties taken lightly
Pacemakers have played a crucial role in racing, however the art of setting the pace seems to be dying a death. When someone as experienced as Michael Hills, riding Rerouted, goes off far too quickly in the St James's Palace, you know there is something wrong. But he's far from alone, as Joseph O'Brien's ride on Jan Vermeer was not as conducive to So You Think's chance as it should be. Let's not forget how good O'Brien was on Memphis Tennessee in the Derby just a fortnight earlier, but there seems to be a lack of common sense when jockeys are told to set strong fractions on (relative) no-hopers. By going too quick, other jockeys are left with no decision but to sit back from the pace, meaning that we see two distinct races and one very tired horse. However it completely nullifies having a pacemaker in the field and it's something for the big battalions to consider if they want to see their superstars at their very peak.
Murtagh is the go-to man for the big races
Johnny Murtagh won the Wokingham Stakes for the second successive year, as Deacon Blues repeated the effort of Laddies Poker Two 12 months earlier. Both horses were ridden with patience and precision, and the 41-year-old seems to time his challenges to perfection time after time on the big stage. He also appears to be calm when riding the subject of public gambles, as Laddies Poker Two came a year after riding 4-1 favourite Forgotten Voice to victory in the Royal Hunt Cup. Two Royal Ascot wins this year have come hot on the heels of his fine winning Epsom Oaks ride on Dancing Rain and although his strike-rate this season isn't as impressive as when backed by the might of Ballydoyle, he is riding as well as ever and there is no doubt that if he stays fit then he will soon convert 96 Group One winners to a magical century.
Trainers target certain races
This may sound rather obvious, but looking at horses who had previously contested the same race would have paid dividends this week. Rock Society went one place better than when second in the Golden Jubilee in 2010, whilst Queen Alexandra winner Swingkeel was third in the race last year. Trainers sometimes believe that a race is lucky, and whilst one would suspect that Mark Johnston is not your lucky heather or palm reading kind of guy, the fact that he has now won six of the last 11 Queen's Vases speaks volumes. Aidan O'Brien, thanks to Yeats, has won five of the last six Gold Cups, whilst Fort Bastion nearly gave Richard Hannon a third win in the Chesham Stakes from the last four years. It's not rocket science or a shortcut to riches, but it's certainly worth bearing in mind when looking at the big meetings.
I seem to agree with most of that and perhaps that's why I find the article interesting.
The race schedule needs addressing
The race planners need to look at rescheduling some of the big races. Twice the number of people attended on Saturday as Tuesday, but with the Golden Jubilee not at it's zenith at present, the racecard was not befitting of a 70,000+ crowd. Three Group Ones to start the meeting means it begins with a bang, however the feeling afterwards is almost that of a tyre with a slow puncture. At present there are seven Group One races, and a more even spread would help to ensure that the five days of Royal Ascot feel more like a pleasure rather than a stretch. Although some may worry about the prospect of 30+ runners storming down the track on day one, the Royal Hunt Cup would be an ideal race for the opening day, with either the St James's Palace or Queen Anne more deserving of a bigger audience at the weekend.
Frankel is not unbeatable
Henry Cecil's colt has won all seven of his starts but, arguably for the first time, he finished the St James's Palace with an air of vulnerability. He got the run of the race yet his winning distance was a diminishing three parts of a length. Many feel that as he settled better, now is the time to execute more patient waiting tactics, however it appears that the bunch are catching him up. On quicker ground I believe Zoffany can beat him, whilst Excelebration did ever so well to finish third considering Richard Hughes and Dubawi Gold almost put him through the rail at halfway. A clash with Canford Cliffs is in the offing, however, much like the Prix Jacques Le Marois last season where Makfi surprised Goldikova and Paco Boy, don't be surprised if A. N. Other wins the Sussex Stakes.
Pacemaking duties taken lightly
Pacemakers have played a crucial role in racing, however the art of setting the pace seems to be dying a death. When someone as experienced as Michael Hills, riding Rerouted, goes off far too quickly in the St James's Palace, you know there is something wrong. But he's far from alone, as Joseph O'Brien's ride on Jan Vermeer was not as conducive to So You Think's chance as it should be. Let's not forget how good O'Brien was on Memphis Tennessee in the Derby just a fortnight earlier, but there seems to be a lack of common sense when jockeys are told to set strong fractions on (relative) no-hopers. By going too quick, other jockeys are left with no decision but to sit back from the pace, meaning that we see two distinct races and one very tired horse. However it completely nullifies having a pacemaker in the field and it's something for the big battalions to consider if they want to see their superstars at their very peak.
Murtagh is the go-to man for the big races
Johnny Murtagh won the Wokingham Stakes for the second successive year, as Deacon Blues repeated the effort of Laddies Poker Two 12 months earlier. Both horses were ridden with patience and precision, and the 41-year-old seems to time his challenges to perfection time after time on the big stage. He also appears to be calm when riding the subject of public gambles, as Laddies Poker Two came a year after riding 4-1 favourite Forgotten Voice to victory in the Royal Hunt Cup. Two Royal Ascot wins this year have come hot on the heels of his fine winning Epsom Oaks ride on Dancing Rain and although his strike-rate this season isn't as impressive as when backed by the might of Ballydoyle, he is riding as well as ever and there is no doubt that if he stays fit then he will soon convert 96 Group One winners to a magical century.
Trainers target certain races
This may sound rather obvious, but looking at horses who had previously contested the same race would have paid dividends this week. Rock Society went one place better than when second in the Golden Jubilee in 2010, whilst Queen Alexandra winner Swingkeel was third in the race last year. Trainers sometimes believe that a race is lucky, and whilst one would suspect that Mark Johnston is not your lucky heather or palm reading kind of guy, the fact that he has now won six of the last 11 Queen's Vases speaks volumes. Aidan O'Brien, thanks to Yeats, has won five of the last six Gold Cups, whilst Fort Bastion nearly gave Richard Hannon a third win in the Chesham Stakes from the last four years. It's not rocket science or a shortcut to riches, but it's certainly worth bearing in mind when looking at the big meetings.
I seem to agree with most of that and perhaps that's why I find the article interesting.
I'm glad he's highlighted the farce that pacemaking has become - it has for some years now, but it's only when someone in the media cracks on about it that it becomes an issue. They're a waste of time and space, have been ever since darling SHOLOKHOV was sent out miles in front, when he was, in fact, a very good horse in his own right.
As for trainers targetting certain races, his examples lean more to horses targetting the same races again and again. If they love the CD, the jockey's right for them and the weight's okay, then trainers perhaps not so much target the race, per se, but a particular horse at that race. Which makes perfect sense.
As for trainers targetting certain races, his examples lean more to horses targetting the same races again and again. If they love the CD, the jockey's right for them and the weight's okay, then trainers perhaps not so much target the race, per se, but a particular horse at that race. Which makes perfect sense.
davidjohnson
At the Start
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2007
- Messages
- 3,434
An assertion that a trainer like Mark Johnston targets the Queens Vase because he thinks it's lucky, is a bit insulting. Nothing to with the fact that the vast majority of horses are out-and-out galloping types that outstay their pedigree and are suited by the demands of such a race then.
His analysis of the St James's Palace is way off the mark. Frankel had the run of the race? I don't think so.
And who is Rock Society?
His analysis of the St James's Palace is way off the mark. Frankel had the run of the race? I don't think so.
And who is Rock Society?
EC1
On a break
i too agree with most of it..except the Frankel bit..he didn't get the run of the race...the run of the race got him
He's addressed some racing issues, but he's overlooked the perfect time to criticise the course's attitude towards its racegoers. As one THL said to me on Saturday at Lingfield, the new grandstand was never built with the Royal Enclosure or the regular racegoer in mind - it was and is aimed at major corporate hospitality, sheikhs' suites, and high-priced dining. The course caters dreadfully for the less mobile and truly disabled who may need wheelchairs or scooters. One of two lifts was out of order on the Friday I went and most of the staff was clueless - presumably mostly hired in for the day and not briefed or given adequate paper info.
The main entrance is utterly confusing with rubbish signage and too much going on in a small area. You could've worn any old clobber for the RE, as some did, as no gatemen were checking for the rigorous dress standards publicised at the time of ticket purchase - hence a few tail feathers in lieu of a hat, and one woman in pants I wouldn't be seen gardening in, with a non-matching jacket. If you're going to continue to tout the event as the cream of the Flat year, then run it as if it is - not as if you only want the corporate non-racing, unhorsey crowds and despise the general racegoers who might want a seat out of the rain which they don't have to pre-book and pay far too much for. The answer is probably to walk around with one of those little folding seats which look like large shooting sticks, unless one's being sponsored by FatCats Inc.
The main entrance is utterly confusing with rubbish signage and too much going on in a small area. You could've worn any old clobber for the RE, as some did, as no gatemen were checking for the rigorous dress standards publicised at the time of ticket purchase - hence a few tail feathers in lieu of a hat, and one woman in pants I wouldn't be seen gardening in, with a non-matching jacket. If you're going to continue to tout the event as the cream of the Flat year, then run it as if it is - not as if you only want the corporate non-racing, unhorsey crowds and despise the general racegoers who might want a seat out of the rain which they don't have to pre-book and pay far too much for. The answer is probably to walk around with one of those little folding seats which look like large shooting sticks, unless one's being sponsored by FatCats Inc.
From the point of view of ease of use of the amenities, it's left behind by Wolverhampton and Plumpton - the latter having just won an Investor in People Award and frequently quoted as 'the friendliest course' by racegoers. Ascot is a hangar, as you say, mated with a giant boardroom. All the charisma of Croydon.
Weird that the horses still have to cross Ascot High Street to return to their boxes. I don't know what the quality of stable staff accom and facilities are like, but I imagine they're rather basic. (Waits to be corrected.)
Weird that the horses still have to cross Ascot High Street to return to their boxes. I don't know what the quality of stable staff accom and facilities are like, but I imagine they're rather basic. (Waits to be corrected.)
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trudij
Senior Jockey
Harsh - there are a few nice bits in Croydon...
actuallly - last time I went to Ascot, the stables, the hostel and the canteen there were fantastic - its heavily subsidised there, so the food and drink is dirt cheap - and its the one good thing about the place IMO.
actuallly - last time I went to Ascot, the stables, the hostel and the canteen there were fantastic - its heavily subsidised there, so the food and drink is dirt cheap - and its the one good thing about the place IMO.
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Colin Phillips
At the Start
Had another look at some of the Ascot races this afternoon and on the subject of pace-making, what a nice job Mickael Barzalona did on Flash Dance for Goldikova. Gave her a lead all the way into the race.