Russia/Georgia
- Thread starter Guest_
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surprised no replies here about this
where are all the left winged people manifesting in the streets against the war????
Russia doing a job for them profiting of Bush out of the White House in December.
UE cant do anything after the pathetic behaviour in the Kosovo affair.
where are all the left winged people manifesting in the streets against the war????
Russia doing a job for them profiting of Bush out of the White House in December.
UE cant do anything after the pathetic behaviour in the Kosovo affair.
If the result of this is Georgia's accelerated membership of NATO and a strongly reinforced defence, then thats a reasonable upside. it is far from being a perfect state (where is in that part of the world?) but getting ex-Soviet states onside with EU, NATO and the USA is a decent objective
trackside528
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Saakhasvili is a fucking madman.
In terms of the origins of this present situation, blame can be apportioned to both sides it seems. Russia for provoking by handing out passports, essentially using their "peacekeeping" forces as an occupying army. Saakhasvili gladly took the bait (the fucking loon that he is). He's been spewing rubbish about "reclaiming lost territories ever since he took office and he nearly overstepped the line in Abkhazia. This time he has.
Given the fact that Russia is dpended upon by the likes of Germany and France for a number of projects (nevermind the current energy situation), I think the attitude towards Georgia will be fairly hostile. As well it should be.
In terms of the origins of this present situation, blame can be apportioned to both sides it seems. Russia for provoking by handing out passports, essentially using their "peacekeeping" forces as an occupying army. Saakhasvili gladly took the bait (the fucking loon that he is). He's been spewing rubbish about "reclaiming lost territories ever since he took office and he nearly overstepped the line in Abkhazia. This time he has.
Given the fact that Russia is dpended upon by the likes of Germany and France for a number of projects (nevermind the current energy situation), I think the attitude towards Georgia will be fairly hostile. As well it should be.
He's a chancer whose played poker with his peoples lifes. Russia is an emerging and embittered power. What was he thinking? Do we really think America has moved in the interests of democracy, or the fact that a pipeline runs through Georgia? Zimbabwe? It looks like a very selective policy of promoting democracy to me, and one that revolve around a common denominator. Anyone spotted the pattern yet?
Sheikh
At the Start
I don't know anything about the history of this place but it occurred to me that the position of ossetia right smack bang in the middle of the Georgian border is convenient for the Russians. While The north is still annexed by the Russians, the south has it's independence. I presume the Russians sponsor the local militia. Abkhazia also seems to be conveniently strategically well placed beside the oil port. I'd imagine the area is littered with small states with an eye on some form of autonomy which we haven't heard of, (mostly in Russia) but not being sponsored by the Russians.
Perhaps the Georgian President is a madman or perhaps he saw it as the last throw of the dice to arouse an international outcry before his country got swallowed up again. He can't of thought the Russians would have stood back and watched.
Perhaps the Georgian President is a madman or perhaps he saw it as the last throw of the dice to arouse an international outcry before his country got swallowed up again. He can't of thought the Russians would have stood back and watched.
I think thats not far from the truth Sheik.
How many were aware that the one major pipeline from the east that doesnt cross russia goes through Georgia?
We all know that now. And we all know how important it is to preserve that
Russia still needs the west. It cannot continue to rely on high oil prices for ever and needs to diversify its economy. The threat to boot it out of the major economic bodies and forums should remain high
How many were aware that the one major pipeline from the east that doesnt cross russia goes through Georgia?
We all know that now. And we all know how important it is to preserve that
Russia still needs the west. It cannot continue to rely on high oil prices for ever and needs to diversify its economy. The threat to boot it out of the major economic bodies and forums should remain high
trackside528
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I would say there's an element of truth in both of those arguments, Sheikh. Perhaps madman was too strong a word on my part (as Saakhashvili clearly had a strategy- however misguided or ill-thought out- before going into South Ossetia.) Then again, some of the greatest madmen in history thought their strategies to be infallible!
His rhetoric- started almost as soon as the conflict began- about human rights violations and the violation of the sovereignty of a democratic nation, was designed to get the international community onboard. However, he seemed to forget the fact taht the United States is largely hamstrung in its abilty (or will) to seriously intervene and the Europena community is impatient at best with Saakhasvili and his antics.
However, that doesn't excuse Russia's on-going excursions into Georgia; I suppose the fact that that's exactly what Saakhasvili wanted is largely irrelevant.
cricketfan
At the Start
I get the impression that the Russians weren't without reason to go in.
Grand Armee
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More worrying times
From the Associated Press, and this is highly worrying.
Russia: Poland risks attack because of US missiles
By JIM HEINTZ – 1 day ago
MOSCOW (AP) — Russia warned Poland on Friday that it is exposing itself to attack — even a nuclear one — by accepting a U.S. missile interceptor base on its soil, delivering Moscow's strongest language yet against the plan.
American and Polish officials stuck firmly by their deal, signed Thursday, for Poland to host a system that Washington says is meant to block missile attacks by rogue nations like Iran.
Moscow is convinced the base is aimed at Russia's missile force, however, and the deal comes as relations already are strained over the fighting between Russia and U.S.-allied Georgia over the separatist Georgian region of South Ossetia.
"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent," Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff of Russia's armed forces, was quoted by the Interfax news agency as saying.
He noted Russia's military doctrine sanctions the use of nuclear weapons "against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them." Nogovitsyn said that would include elements of any strategic deterrence system, according to Interfax.
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said the deal "absolutely clearly demonstrates what we had said earlier — the deployment has the Russian Federation as its target."
However, speaking at news conference with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Medvedev appeared to take a softer position than Nogovitsyn's on the Polish base, saying that "it is sad news for all who live on this densely populated continent, but it is not dramatic."
U.S. officials defended the missile defense deal and said the timing was not meant to antagonize Russian leaders amid the conflict in Georgia.
"Poland is an independent country. And it's an ally of the United States. And it's a democratic country, to whose security the United States is committed" through NATO, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said during a visit to Georgia's capital, Tbilisi.
"Russia should welcome having democracies on its border, not threaten them," she said.
Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski said Poland was willing to let Russia inspect the future missile base to give Moscow "tangible proof" that it is not directed against Russia's arsenal, the Polish news agency PAP reported.
At a news conference earlier in the day, Nogovitsyn reiterated Russia's frequently stated warning that placing missile interceptors in Poland and a linked radar post in the Czech Republic would bring an unspecified military response. But the general's subsequent reported statement substantially stepped up the war of words.
Russian troops went deep into Georgia in the fighting, raising wide concerns that Russia could be seeking to occupy parts of a small, pro-U.S. neighbor that has vigorously lobbied to join NATO, or perhaps force the Georgian government to collapse.
"I think the Russian behavior over the last several days is generally concerning not only to the United States but to all of our European allies," Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said when asked about Russian threats against Poland.
He also suggested that earlier U.S. offers for broad cooperation with Moscow on the missile defense program might be reevaluated considering the latest developments.
The missile deal, struck Thursday after more than 18 months of talks, must still be approved by Poland's parliament and signed by Rice during a future visit to Warsaw, possibly next week.
Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said the United States agreed to help augment Poland's defenses with Patriot missiles in exchange for placing 10 missile defense interceptors in the eastern European country.
He said the deal also includes a "mutual commitment" between the two nations to come to each other's assistance "in case of trouble." That clause appeared to be a direct reference to Russia, whose resurgent muscle worries Polish leaders.
"Simply, the existence of this installation increases Poland's security," Polish President Lech Kaczynski said.
Making a visit to Russia, German Chancellor Angela Merkel suggested Russia be included in the missile defense system.
"From my point of view, this deal is not directed against Russia," she said in Sochi at a joint news conference with Medvedev. "We will continue to advocate that talks be continued on how we can convince Russia of this and also ... include it," she added.
Associated Press writers Vanessa Gera in Warsaw, Poland, Matthew Lee traveling with Rice and Lolita C. Baldor in Washington contributed to this report.
From the Associated Press, and this is highly worrying.
Russia: Poland risks attack because of US missiles
By JIM HEINTZ – 1 day ago
MOSCOW (AP) — Russia warned Poland on Friday that it is exposing itself to attack — even a nuclear one — by accepting a U.S. missile interceptor base on its soil, delivering Moscow's strongest language yet against the plan.
American and Polish officials stuck firmly by their deal, signed Thursday, for Poland to host a system that Washington says is meant to block missile attacks by rogue nations like Iran.
Moscow is convinced the base is aimed at Russia's missile force, however, and the deal comes as relations already are strained over the fighting between Russia and U.S.-allied Georgia over the separatist Georgian region of South Ossetia.
"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent," Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff of Russia's armed forces, was quoted by the Interfax news agency as saying.
He noted Russia's military doctrine sanctions the use of nuclear weapons "against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them." Nogovitsyn said that would include elements of any strategic deterrence system, according to Interfax.
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said the deal "absolutely clearly demonstrates what we had said earlier — the deployment has the Russian Federation as its target."
However, speaking at news conference with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Medvedev appeared to take a softer position than Nogovitsyn's on the Polish base, saying that "it is sad news for all who live on this densely populated continent, but it is not dramatic."
U.S. officials defended the missile defense deal and said the timing was not meant to antagonize Russian leaders amid the conflict in Georgia.
"Poland is an independent country. And it's an ally of the United States. And it's a democratic country, to whose security the United States is committed" through NATO, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said during a visit to Georgia's capital, Tbilisi.
"Russia should welcome having democracies on its border, not threaten them," she said.
Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski said Poland was willing to let Russia inspect the future missile base to give Moscow "tangible proof" that it is not directed against Russia's arsenal, the Polish news agency PAP reported.
At a news conference earlier in the day, Nogovitsyn reiterated Russia's frequently stated warning that placing missile interceptors in Poland and a linked radar post in the Czech Republic would bring an unspecified military response. But the general's subsequent reported statement substantially stepped up the war of words.
Russian troops went deep into Georgia in the fighting, raising wide concerns that Russia could be seeking to occupy parts of a small, pro-U.S. neighbor that has vigorously lobbied to join NATO, or perhaps force the Georgian government to collapse.
"I think the Russian behavior over the last several days is generally concerning not only to the United States but to all of our European allies," Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said when asked about Russian threats against Poland.
He also suggested that earlier U.S. offers for broad cooperation with Moscow on the missile defense program might be reevaluated considering the latest developments.
The missile deal, struck Thursday after more than 18 months of talks, must still be approved by Poland's parliament and signed by Rice during a future visit to Warsaw, possibly next week.
Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said the United States agreed to help augment Poland's defenses with Patriot missiles in exchange for placing 10 missile defense interceptors in the eastern European country.
He said the deal also includes a "mutual commitment" between the two nations to come to each other's assistance "in case of trouble." That clause appeared to be a direct reference to Russia, whose resurgent muscle worries Polish leaders.
"Simply, the existence of this installation increases Poland's security," Polish President Lech Kaczynski said.
Making a visit to Russia, German Chancellor Angela Merkel suggested Russia be included in the missile defense system.
"From my point of view, this deal is not directed against Russia," she said in Sochi at a joint news conference with Medvedev. "We will continue to advocate that talks be continued on how we can convince Russia of this and also ... include it," she added.
Associated Press writers Vanessa Gera in Warsaw, Poland, Matthew Lee traveling with Rice and Lolita C. Baldor in Washington contributed to this report.