Sadler's Wells has put out his last cigarratte

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Wigmore Hall > Listed/G3
Redwood > Listed/G3

See DJ's comments on High Heeled.

How do you know that he has had enough "chances"?

I would argue that he hasn't had many chances with top mares over here, given the fact that he shares a barn with Galileo and Montjeu.

Did you know that he has more RPR 120+ performers than Invincible Spirit (5-1)? More 110+ performers than Invincible Spirt (16-12)? Despite being around for two years less. And despite costing less than half as much for a cover?

He has sired just as many Group winners. He has sired just as many Group 1 winners.

The next few years will be crucial for him, as he is going to get very good mares (and rightly so). Many a promising stallion career hasn't pushed on from where he is now (Barathea comes to mind), but he has done little wrong so far.
 
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What about the Coronation Cup where she was third to Fame And Glory and Sariska where she finished in front of the 2 horses that were placed behind Sea The Stars in the 2009 Arc?
 
davidjohnson said:
What about the Coronation Cup where she was third to Fame And Glory and Sariska where she finished in front of the 2 horses that were placed behind Sea The Stars in the 2009 Arc?
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Neither were the same horses last season - check TF ratings for this one I reckon.
 
Bar the Bull said:
Wigmore Hall > Listed/G3
Redwood > Listed/G3

See DJ's comments on High Heeled.

How do you know that he has had enough "chances"?

I would argue that he hasn't had many chances with top mares over here, given the fact that he shares a barn with Galileo and Montjeu.

Did you know that he has more RPR 120+ performers than Invincible Spirit (5-1)? More 110+ performers than Invincible Spirt (16-12)? Despite being around for two years less. And despite costing less than half as much for a cover?

He has sired just as many Group winners. He has sired just as many Group 1 winners.

The next few years will be crucial for him, as he is going to get very good mares (and rightly so). Many a promising stallion career hasn't pushed on from where he is now (Barathea comes to mind), but he has done little wrong so far.
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I didn't know all that, but then I'm not interested in Australian racing at all ... as I said, I was more referring to his European record. He is clearly not bad, but doesn't deserve to be bracketed anywhere near the likes of Montjeu or Galileo. I have this image in my head he gives his horses stamina but makes them a touch slow :p
 
Hamm said:
Wigmore Hall, Redwood and High Heeled will never place in a strong Group 1.
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Redwood's seconds in the HK Vase and Sheema Classic are pretty good efforts in the formbook or would you not class Rewilding and Mastery as strong Group One horses? :)
 
No Godolphin baiting please!

Rewilding is top class but he thumped Redwood very easily, and could have won by more.

Is there a Group 1 in UK/Fra/Ire you would fancy Redwood to win? Me neither!
 
Basically my point is this - all he has achieved is a few minor placings in Group 1s that were not close to winning - that does not make him a top stallion, and he has been around quite a while. It doesn't make him a bad stallion either but puts him somewhere in between.
 
I'm sure those who would know more than I would also confirm that HC wasn't exactly an expensive stallion, either, so they are good results for the fee.

Wtf - cigaratte ? He was a jaffa, wasn't he ?
 
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Bar the Bull said:
That is not all he has achieved. He has achieved a lot in Australia.

He has had only 3 crops of 3yos.

Let's not forget his Leger second and his Irish Derby second.
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I don't count Australian racing when analysing european stallions (as I said).

He needs a couple of Group 1 winners..
 
Admittedly, if you don't count Australian racing, and you don't count his multiple G1 placed horses, or his multiple Group winners or the relatively lower grade of mare he has been getting....and if you measure him against the two most successful European sires in the business, he doesn't look great.
 
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Bar the Bull said:
Admittedly, if you don't count Australian racing, and you don't count his multiple G1 placed horses, or his multiple Group winners or the relatively lower grade of mare he has been getting....and if you measure him against the two most successful European sires in the business, he doesn't look great.
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:lol:

Who says he has been getting mares of a relatively low grade?
 
Not sure the lesser quality mare arguement holds much water.

HC's progeny do seem to be better suited by conditions down under to date.
 
Hamm said:
It also doesn't seem as high a standard as European racing..
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2 of the top 5 rated horses in the World at the moment are Australian.

Their middle distance horses probably aren't quite as high a standard but they wouldn't be miles behind. Their sprinters are of a much much high a standard though.
 
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