Scottish Independence.....

Grasshopper said:
Gorgeous George may hold many odious positions, but he is a force-of-nature in these types of debates. As it happens, Sturgeon has decided to put in an appearance after all. Should be proper order viewing.
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When's this one on? And can BBC Scotland actually broadcast it this time without fecking up their feed. Independence? they can't even run a television station

I also have to say, fair play to Nicola Sturgeon. She called out Ed Miliband and he ran away, so when she was called she had to stand up really. Sounds like Salmonds pointed a few things out to her though in order to change her mind.

I'd agree Grassy, facing off against Galloway ain't easy (as Kay Burley discovered when he chewed her up and spat her out) but she's going to lose the vote anyway, she might as well go out like a Glaswegian standing her ground, and so long as she parrots the well rehearsed party lines any 'who do you think won' opinion poll will divide accordingly anyway

In any event, can anyone really believe that the No campaign benefits from Galloway? If he gets all ranty and bullying on her, who knows? The women currently voting No might suddenly feel a tinge sorry for her. Remember 1992
 
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I watched tonight's 'big debate' but gave up after 14 minutes.

Nicola Sturgeon was doing what the entire yes campaign has been doing for weeks now: cutting across everyone who spoke and forcing her opinion down everyone's throats.

I'm not so sure the debate was ever a good idea in the first place. School pupils will be 'prepped' by either their Modern Studies teachers or their parents and there's no way of knowing until they open their mouths what their 'views' are. And in the short section I saw, James Cook was clearly out of his depth as a chair.

I'm not at all sure Galloway was a good choice to represent the BT campaign. Does he really think donning a fedora will make him appeal to the youth vote? OK, they might identify with a maverick character but the guy is a d1ck and a liability.
 
I only caught the last 15 mins on I Player. Had no idea this was a pre-arranged thing. The BBC runs some breaking news feed where they reported a Galloway tweet that made it sound like he was calling her out for a straight fight, and she'd refused, instead of her being a panelist refusing to take the stage with him

Galloway got the last word but mindlessly slipped into the idea that we're all better together for fighting wars and tried using the example of how we stood alone against Hitler as his summary, and that if we hadn't done, "we'd be having this debate in German". For someone so versed in Soviet history it was remarkable oversight. We might be having the debate in a foreign language George but it would be Russian not German. In any event, if we've got to stay together so that we can fight wars more effectively, then I'd have loved someone to ask him to nominate our most likely enemy. Be interesting to see what reception he got back in Bradford

The other seriously disappointing aspect was the audience. If we're going to embrace the 16 year old voter, then was it necessary to insist they wore school uniform and belittle them that way. It looked like the BBC was mocking them. I'm sure equally that the questioners were hand picked and scripted by others, but there was nothing I heard in this stage managed event admittedly, that would suggest they were any less ill informed and incapable of reconciling the issues then many people older than them were struggling to grasp. I actually thought it was quite healthy that they participated as actively as they did. The supplementaies and reaction shots told me they were able to evaluate the answers they were being given to the level you'd hope, but there was more than just a hint of patronisation (Galloway worst offender)

In fact when you compare the performance of the Scottish teenager in the audience to Lord Prescott saying we should unite to beat the Germans at football, and now Gallowway suggesting we need to do so to beat the Germans at war, it does make you wonder whether society has got this completely the wrong way round
 
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It was a poor outing from Georgie, but agree with DO's general sentiment - it was all a bit of a pointless rammy.
 
Thinking back, I suspect the Yes people might have missed a trick in not putting up Tommy Sheridan for the debate.

I once attended the closing ceremony of a student event - this was before his court case - and the guy was genuinely inspirational. For all his faults and failings, he is a genuine orator and knows how to connect with young people.

Maybe he's seen as damaged goods but it was long ago enough for most of last night's audience not to know about.
 
Sheridan is a gobshite who thinks he is the reincarnation of Jimmy Reid (with all the integrity removed). I suspect that the YES campaign took the view that having a convicted criminal - one convicted of lying in a court of law, no less - probably wouldn't help bolster their case.......principally because they've told enough lies already.

My mate went along to a Sheridan event at Roslin Town Hall a week back. Said TS was basically extolling the virtues of the Marxist wonderland he expects Scotland to become after a Yes vote. This didn't seem to go down particularly well with the affluent burghers of the village, and he started getting heckled. His response was "If you don't like it, then fu*ck off"......at which point half the room got up and left.

Orator me hole.
 
Why this talk about galloway?

The only news I want to hear is another nutter doing a proper job this time
 
Grasshopper said:
Sheridan is a gobshite who thinks he is the reincarnation of Jimmy Reid (with all the integrity removed). I suspect that the YES campaign took the view that having a convicted criminal - one convicted of lying in a court of law, no less - probably wouldn't help bolster their case.......principally because they've told enough lies already.

My mate went along to a Sheridan event at Roslin Town Hall a week back. Said TS was basically extolling the virtues of the Marxist wonderland he expects Scotland to become after a Yes vote. This didn't seem to go down particularly well with the affluent burghers of the village, and he started getting heckled. His response was "If you don't like it, then fu*ck off"......at which point half the room got up and left.

Orator me hole.
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Interesting, GH. Like I said, when he addressed the students (10 years ago maybe) he was utterly brilliant. Even the adults (largely well-heeled) gave him a standing ovation.

But I suppose damaged goods is damaged goods and maybe he's lost the plot following his fall from grace, if I can call it that.

FWIW, I've never had any time for the guy but that day he was brilliant.

Just-cos-Spencer-rides-the-odd-winner-doesn't-make-him-a-great-jockey situation maybe...
 
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The polls are supposedly close again but the market is much firmer towards no

I still think the yes campaign is having a kinnock moment and so do the markets .
 
1/4 No with betfair. Haven't been following this story too closely, but the noises about economic doom that are coming out in the last week will resonate with voters that were borderline or undecided I feel. Passion and pride and fist clenching will go so far but when people begin to question the actual impact on their lives financially then it becomes more real.

That said, if they show Braveheart on a continuous loop the day of the vote it may well go close...
 
Yes campaign now playing their 'Westminster Bullying' and 'Media Bias' jokers......it's usually a sign that you're losing the argument.
 
del boy said:
1/4 No with betfair. Haven't been following this story too closely, but the noises about economic doom that are coming out in the last week will resonate with voters that were borderline or undecided I feel. Passion and pride and fist clenching will go so far but when people begin to question the actual impact on their lives financially then it becomes more real.

That said, if they show Braveheart on a continuous loop the day of the vote it may well go close...
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The stories are grounded though and very logical. Too many think ts bluster but it's hard to find a serious economist with even a slightly positive view on the outcome of a yes vote. If anything it is not being taken seriously enough
 
clivex said:
The stories are grounded though and very logical. Too many think ts bluster but it's hard to find a serious economist with even a slightly positive view on the outcome of a yes vote. If anything it is not being taken seriously enough
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I'm not questioning their merits, just pointing out that they have become much more vocal in the last week and will be catching the ear of the undecided voter and middle of the road voter. I fully understand the economic problems that will have to be over come if their is a yes vote. A big like Northern Ireland, London is subsidising the running of it to the tune of 5bn annually, that would be a nightmare to try and find that from the Irish govts point of view if they were left in charge.
 
Really odd. Papers today say polls are neck and neck and yet price is contracted to 1/6 with some bookies
 
If you missed it, check out the BBC iplayer for Andrew Neil's interview with Tommy Sheridan.

Brilliant TV whether you agree with the man or not (and I don't).
 
clivex said:
Really odd. Papers today say polls are neck and neck and yet price is contracted to 1/6 with some bookies
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Where are you getting 1/6 Clive

I told someone a few weeks ago to take Evens about a turnout at 75% or more, whether they did or not I don't know. I thought that was a rick

I still suspect that we could be seeing a fair degree of disingenuous responders to opinion polls. I think I'd be tempted to tell a pollster I was voting Yes even if I weren't because I know it would send waves down into London

I wouldn't be shocked to see 45/55 yet in the final reckoning which i'll happily conceed would still be a massive result for the Yes campaign

How does Scotland pick up the pieces if it's close? What if it strongly divides into geographic or demographic communities? Glasgow and Edinburgh don't exactly get on with each other as things stand.
 
when people actually have the ballot paper in front of them..it will be 75 - 25 in favour of NO

a lot of hot air being talked re saying yes..talk is cheap.

when you are gambling with your future..better get some good advice..rather than bollox i've been seeing..without that decent advice..best leave things be
 
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I'm guessing EC, and to some extent I'm using the 3% who told pollsters they were voting labour in 1992 but clearly voted Tory when they knew that no one was checking up on them.

Justifying the pursuit of selfishness has long been one of the most challenging academic problems posed to right wing philosophers. What they try and do is deflect, rebrand, or decieve, so that greed is called ambition. In 1992 people knew that there was something unedifying about the Tories, but they associated them with sell offs and tax cuts. Therefore they indicated left and turned right.

I wouldn't be shocked if a bit of this is going on with people wanting to be seen to be could anti-English, anti-Tory Scots, full of sound and fury, but who will then do something slightly different on judgement day. I doubt we're looking at 25/75 though. If you really believe that, you can probably get 100/1 with someone

I think 45/55 is more likely, but as I said, I'm guessing
 
Don't Know's have been a significant percentage in all polls.

I don't want to overplay things, but the debate up here has been 'stout', and I figure that most DK's are probably more accurately cast as 'Not Saying' - the temperature of the discussion lending itself to a certain circumspection as regards boosting the status-quo.

I reckon (and hope) that these DK's will translate as No votes, when push-comes-to-shove at the Polling Booth.
 
Grasshopper said:
I don't want to overplay things, but the debate up here has been 'stout', and I figure that most DK's are probably more accurately cast as 'Not Saying' - the temperature of the discussion lending itself to a certain circumspection as regards boosting the status-quo.

I reckon (and hope) that these DK's will translate as No votes, when push-comes-to-shove at the Polling Booth.
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I suspect (and hope) you are right.

The Yes mob are the proverbial empty vessels.

Something else occurred to me today (can't understand why not sooner).

The No camp are saying there is no going back on the ultimate decision.

Alex is saying it's a 'once in a generation' decision. In other words, if he doesn't get his way on Thursday he's not going to let this bone go.
 
If there is a No vote, the Fat Man can be expected to try and boom-boom-shake-the-room, but he will be a loser in the eyes of all - not least those in his own party, who will seek to metaphorically plop his napper on a stick.

Nick Nack could easily be leading the Scottish Government early in the New Year.....and desperately hoping she can ride the storm until the new, federalist powers are established at Holyrood.

The stakes here are high.

A Yes vote is a high-risk leap into the unknown. A No vote secures additional autonomy. Fu*ck knows how Yes continues to punch-up high numbers, when there is no losing by voting the other way.
 
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