Scottish Independence.....

What detail does he need to know?

Pretty simple isn't it?

No it's not actually and has all sorts of ramifications

It's only simple if you adopt a one dimensional view of the world with little appreciation of strategic judgement. It's simple if you're the sort of person who does the base equation of "I don't like something so I hit it, that sorts it" (the right wing world view) but as such people have found in places like Iraq, the longer the temporal horizon you end up creating difficulties that the three dimensional thinkers can see, but which tribal one dimensionists can't.

Having said that, I don't think Miliband is thinking beyond his own narrow interest either, and I doubt he starts from the same position of seeing what's at stake (he'll frame his own appreciation through the prism of the Labour party)

If Miliband was a three dimensional thinker, he'd have voted yes to AV for instance which would mitigate some of this mess he now finds himself in. Miliband is going to play for time in the hope of winning a majority at the enxt election. He has to introduce electoral reform though (should have support from Liberals and opportunists like UKIP).

Ultimately the west Lothian issue will be settled in England's favour, albeit you might have silly situations whereby a government can be defeated on English legislation, but then survive a no confidence vote, leading to paralysis and all sorts of damaging uncertainty. The future of the UK however ultimately comes into question over the longer term.

Cameron is making the same mistakes that Thatcher made because he's starting from a poorly informed position. Ironically, the one thing he's trying to hold together, he'll end up shattering on much larger scale if he isn't careful. Never under-estimate the powers of unintended consequence in politics Clive, nor the ability of our political classes to make a complete and utter mess of things

If I get time I'll give you a fuller explanation later but this isn't about trying to destroy the Labour party as Cameron might think. If he pursues that road he'll create much bigger problems for himself
 
I dont see why this should affect the future of the UK at all.

On what basis do scots have the right to insist on voting on purely Ruk legislation? I see absolutely no reason why they should object.

Its great fun reading ridiculous pieces in the left leaning press on this. Talk about tying in knots.

And why is the west lothian question being settled in Englands "favour"? am i missing something here? I think it is perfectly logical that settlement is to ensure that no aspect of this is in anyones "favour"

This is fantastic for the tories. Labour is quickly being portrayed (rightly) as not the party of england and one that wants to retain untenable rights for the celtic fringe

The ballot box will be an almighty FCK OFF, unless they resolve this quickly
 
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I'm sorry Clive, but your whole judgement is that of a one dimensional caveman. It's little wonder you've sleep walked into so many other messes that you've advocated for in the past. You don't even understand the basic foundations of what's involved. This isn't about tribes. If you get this wrong the UK will fall apart and then you'll only be left with a region to govern.

Got too many other things to do to be honest, but this about how the establishment works and the ying that the yang needs. If you kill the ying, then the yang dies with it
 
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That is no answer at all and like your previous post..complete waffle

I also object to the insult

Frankly it means that you cannot answer the question..just the same as nearly everyone else on the left it would appear (aside from frank Field). This is precisely why the left is going to experience a huge problem on this issue unless they get some clarity

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything other than absolute fairness within the system.

What is difficult to understand about it?

It is probably the most straightforward political question most of us can remember

Ill ask the scots here then...

Do you think your westminster mps have the right to vote on purely english matters when english mps have no right at all to vote on purely scottish matters?
 
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Agree. That would be the best, most civilised and simplest solution.

I simply do not see what is complicated about this. US states have a degree of autonomy which is probably higher than devo max even. Do New York representitives vote on Alabama issues and yet Alabama cannot vote on new york?. I dont think so....

UKIP will have a field day with this.

A labour council shields pakistani rapists and derides the white english victims and now the labour party treats english voters rights with complete contempt

looking good for the election isnt it Ed?
 
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I doubt the Orange vote swung it. If you can't win it with 73% of the 16-17yo vote you've no chance. By the next referendum they will have developed some brain cells and changed their vote.

Every age group except 55+ voted YES. Hopefully enough of them will be dead by the next round to make a difference.
 
and when they are dead..the next lot of oldies will vote no..like i said..when people fear for their pensions there is only one outcome..human nature

it was as easy to sort out which way that would go as it is to see who is going to romp home in the next election..you can talk a million words before then but it is a foregone conclusion that labour won't see power..they need rid of Miliband first..even then they will be lucky
 
That is no answer at all and like your previous post..complete waffle

I'm reluctant to go into any depth on it, but I'll start you off with some basics to help you grasp the bigger picture.

In the first case try to understand that the body politik of this country are representatives and defenders of the establishment. Get away from this idea that they're our, representatives. The one thing they most certainly don't represent (they aren't remotely close to it as a body) is the people of the UK.

The next thing to realise is that their primary role is to conserve and protect the structures of state, and the status of the nation, and thus allow the multi-faceted establishment to function. Their role is not to rip things up in the pursuit of narrow partisan interests. Doing so causes disruption, instability, and nervousness. It's why Cameron was so anxious to hold the union together (amongst other reasons) even though it was in his narrow political interests to tow Scotland into the Atlantic and fit limpet mines right round its coastline

The next jump to make is to appreciate the narrowness of the managed political spectrum in this country. This is a fantastic confidence trick and critical to the success and stability of this whole illusion. People are encouraged to think in terms of left and right, indeed Clive, you're one of the very worst exponents I've seen. So from this massive dialetical polemic comes choice and real debate then? It allows you to thrash out the major philosophical challenges to mankind and resolve to defend the leftist or rightist position then? Well no it doesn't actually. The band in which the UK corridor is framed and supported by all the instruments of state is incredibly narrow, the differences between them when you place it in the wider global spectrum is negligible. It's how we end up with party leaders with the same backgrounds that they have, cabinet members with similar backgrounds, and political programmes which are in effect closer to management strategies than anything else. It doesn't matter that much who wins you see so long as nothing changes, but you have to change on the margins in order to keep things as they are

Ah but you point to Labour having influences from the dreaded Trade Union movement. In truth the trades unions are essentially conservative facing organisations, that's what they were founded on increasingly as craftsmens guilds that required a card to work. A vast majority of disputes are essentially protectionist in their nature and not the sorts of popular myth concerning socialist revolution. That reminds me actually, Rosa Luxemburg famously described the trade unions as "supporting the worker, like a rope does a hanged man". The trade unions are also part the deal once they'd fought their way into the corridors of the establishment. So it's the people who frame things through tribal politics who are invaribaly being duped into going along with this and in doing so lend credence to the whole sham.

This is how it works.

We need to maintain the illusion of choice to promote the concept that we're a functioning democracy and with it embed the ideas that elevate us to a higher level than other inferior parts of the world. In the most extreme examples of course, we can be persuaded that this government and society in which we very often have next to no influence over its functioning as individuals, is something we'll go out and fight and die for in order to defend someone elses wealth and privilege.

So we need to sustain the notion of choice, and that means real choice, that is evidencible. Putting a cross in a box ain't enough in the long term. We need to see different political parties (a sham concept in themselves) taking it in turns. This is critical, as this equals 'popular' choice and fluid change.

If you allow an elected dictatorship to form, then you'll strike at the heart of the whole thing that underpins us. That's what will come into focus

Basically the country needs Conservative governemnts to return confidence to the markets and manage the economy by introducing all the brutal short cuts that they do in the pursuit of suppressing Labour. However, the country also needs Labour governments to invest in the capital infrastructure and social programmes that would otherwise prevent society working and ultimately lead to the other side failing to work when their turn comes around again (the ying and the yang). The philosophical establishment warrior understands this, and they take it in their stride because both parties are capitalist and not significantly departed from each other to cause massive ruptures. If the conservatives are left in power for too long the country falls apart. We need Labour to rebuild it. If Labour's left in power for to long we go bust, we need the conservatives to make the nasty decisions with money

Now one of the people who failed to understand this relationship was of course Thatcher. She was sectairian to the point where she thought her job was to destroy the Labour opposition and try to keep it out of government. She didn't realise she was supposed to let it back in now and then to rebuild the infrastructure so that the next generation of the capitalist classes could come along again and pillage it after it hand been replenished. In trying to destory old Labour she became the single biggest architect of 'new labour', a creation of course that would prove to be a much more formidable opponent, and one that vanquished her own party to a 13 years in opposition, and reversed the usual ratio of 2 to 1 that had been observed until then. Scotland also became collateral damage in this process. The rot set in under Thatcher and was confirmed under Major. The corresponding lurch to the right by labour exacerbated the situation further as it allowed the ultimately more dangerous SNP to take the abandoned territory

This wasn't part of the grand design of schemes

The prestige of the UK and its international standing is damaged as it starts to fragment. This is most certainly not encouraged by the establishment

So if we replace the parilamentary process of managed see saw we currently have, with one of elected dictatorship, and if Scotland has shown the regions a blue print of how to get out and reject this structure, what do you suppose the medium term prospect will be?

The tit bit they'll have to throw down is much wider regional devolution or risk wholesale disengagement and with it an erosion of legitimacy. Clearly the political classes couldn't take that, and ultimately the establishment won't either. At this jucture society starts to break down as the notion of choice is punctured and no longer offering hope or belief

History is full of examples of where small popular ideas that captured the zeitgeist turned out to have far reaching consequences. The simpler they appear, very often the more damaging they end up being

Having said that, there is also democratic deficit under this structure too that will need to be addressed. The short term solution is as you describe, but the longer term ramifications of this will be Wales and the northern England entering a period of widespread rebellion or disengagement.
 
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Im not quite sure where this is leading but one thing for certain is...

Labour destroyed itself under Thatcher. It was completely unelectable

First past the post is wrong IMO. I dislike the argument that it brings about "strong government" but i do not for a minute see this as some sort of establishment master plan. its too easy to let the imagination get carried away

UKIP and to some extent the Greens have demonstrated that outsiders can make an impact.

I do not agree about wales and northern england either and more than i would expect the same from south of england under a labour government.

In fact one of the stupidities of FPTP is that it creates the illusion that parts of the country vote en bloc. Not true. There are a huge number of tory voters in the north and wales and there are labour in the south
 
It's why I said in an earlier post that the position Labour in particular, adopted on AV was strategically naive and will come back to haunt them. There was a voter who drove me mad at about this time, the one who said, "I'm in favour of electoral reform, but I'm voting No because I don't agree with AV". This voter actually thought they were being really clever because they could see through the weaknesses of AV, but they were in fact being really stupid, as they were voting against themselves. If faced with the familiar question of which party do you support, would they say, "I actually support the Tories, but I'm going to vote Labour because I don't agree with William Hague"

As it happens, i was no great fan of AV either, and Harriet Harmen is an example of why, but we had to vote for AV to give them an unmanageable structure in order to get something else, as it would only be a matter of a couple of years before our panicky politicians would be all over the place having lost control of the electoral system and begging us to take something less quixotic like PR. They were never going to interpret a rejection of AV as an endorsement of anything other than FPTP, so the journey was finished at that point. Basically it was two step process. They offered us AV to achieve the result they did, and we should have called their bluff and rubber stamped it in order to get the next stage in the journey handed down

This does become relevant I think as AV or PR would re-establish sufficient enough democratic hope to keep people engaged. The danger here is that FPTP under this structure could lead to a permanent one party state and the establishment need to consider the ramifications of this. I'd suggest the threat posed by this is much greater than the occasional one term Labour government, which provided it sets about typical public spend and rebuild programmes, doesn't actually do much harm

The only country in the west (if its not geographical western) where we've seen decades of elected dictatorship, is Japan. Their system is of course mired with widespread public corruption, but they don't really have a culture of dissention (quite the opposite) obedience is their default position.

In the UK elected dictatorship will lead to widespread turn off as people perceive the process to be pointless and stop engaging with it. We know our political classes are terrified of this prospect as it strikes at their very own legitimacy. At local levels on small turn outs it opens the door for the politically engaged sectors of society to start to seize control and set off all sorts of local bonfires (Trojan Horses is the current phrase)

If you're a true democrat you should always be nervous about a head long rush into a resolution because you perceive there's a party advantage involved. In that regard I think Miliband is correct to say that this needs thinking through. I also suspect the thinking he's going through is one of delay and try and form the next government and then address from a position of authority, so he's very bit as guilty himself as Cameron is.

The answer is for Labour to perform a U-turn on electoral reform and make it a manifesto commitment and try and present it in the form of this new found fetish for greater devolution. Call it the "Grand Reform Act". It would ensure that all the other parties in the UK would rally behind it.

The current situation is untenable, but the reactionary answer is equally fraught with longer term problems
 
off topic..but there is very little justice in this word is there?...Abu Qatada walks free..DLT feels some titties 20 years ago and goes to prison

you couldn't dream it up really
 
I'm reluctant to go into any depth on it, but I'll start you off with some basics to help you grasp the bigger picture.

In the first case try to understand that the body politik of this country are representatives and defenders of the establishment. Get away from this idea that they're our, representatives. The one thing they most certainly don't represent (they aren't remotely close to it as a body) is the people of the UK.

The next thing to realise is that their primary role is to conserve and protect the structures of state, and the status of the nation, and thus allow the multi-faceted establishment to function. Their role is not to rip things up in the pursuit of narrow partisan interests. Doing so causes disruption, instability, and nervousness. It's why Cameron was so anxious to hold the union together (amongst other reasons) even though it was in his narrow political interests to tow Scotland into the Atlantic and fit limpet mines right round its coastline

The next jump to make is to appreciate the narrowness of the managed political spectrum in this country. This is a fantastic confidence trick and critical to the success and stability of this whole illusion. People are encouraged to think in terms of left and right, indeed Clive, you're one of the very worst exponents I've seen. So from this massive dialetical polemic comes choice and real debate then? It allows you to thrash out the major philosophical challenges to mankind and resolve to defend the leftist or rightist position then? Well no it doesn't actually. The band in which the UK corridor is framed and supported by all the instruments of state is incredibly narrow, the differences between them when you place it in the wider global spectrum is negligible. It's how we end up with party leaders with the same backgrounds that they have, cabinet members with similar backgrounds, and political programmes which are in effect closer to management strategies than anything else. It doesn't matter that much who wins you see so long as nothing changes, but you have to change on the margins in order to keep things as they are

Ah but you point to Labour having influences from the dreaded Trade Union movement. In truth the trades unions are essentially conservative facing organisations, that's what they were founded on increasingly as craftsmens guilds that required a card to work. A vast majority of disputes are essentially protectionist in their nature and not the sorts of popular myth concerning socialist revolution. That reminds me actually, Rosa Luxemburg famously described the trade unions as "supporting the worker, like a rope does a hanged man". The trade unions are also part the deal once they'd fought their way into the corridors of the establishment. So it's the people who frame things through tribal politics who are invaribaly being duped into going along with this and in doing so lend credence to the whole sham.

This is how it works.

We need to maintain the illusion of choice to promote the concept that we're a functioning democracy and with it embed the ideas that elevate us to a higher level than other inferior parts of the world. In the most extreme examples of course, we can be persuaded that this government and society in which we very often have next to no influence over its functioning as individuals, is something we'll go out and fight and die for in order to defend someone elses wealth and privilege.

So we need to sustain the notion of choice, and that means real choice, that is evidencible. Putting a cross in a box ain't enough in the long term. We need to see different political parties (a sham concept in themselves) taking it in turns. This is critical, as this equals 'popular' choice and fluid change.

If you allow an elected dictatorship to form, then you'll strike at the heart of the whole thing that underpins us. That's what will come into focus

Basically the country needs Conservative governemnts to return confidence to the markets and manage the economy by introducing all the brutal short cuts that they do in the pursuit of suppressing Labour. However, the country also needs Labour governments to invest in the capital infrastructure and social programmes that would otherwise prevent society working and ultimately lead to the other side failing to work when their turn comes around again (the ying and the yang). The philosophical establishment warrior understands this, and they take it in their stride because both parties are capitalist and not significantly departed from each other to cause massive ruptures. If the conservatives are left in power for too long the country falls apart. We need Labour to rebuild it. If Labour's left in power for to long we go bust, we need the conservatives to make the nasty decisions with money

Now one of the people who failed to understand this relationship was of course Thatcher. She was sectairian to the point where she thought her job was to destroy the Labour opposition and try to keep it out of government. She didn't realise she was supposed to let it back in now and then to rebuild the infrastructure so that the next generation of the capitalist classes could come along again and pillage it after it hand been replenished. In trying to destory old Labour she became the single biggest architect of 'new labour', a creation of course that would prove to be a much more formidable opponent, and one that vanquished her own party to a 13 years in opposition, and reversed the usual ratio of 2 to 1 that had been observed until then. Scotland also became collateral damage in this process. The rot set in under Thatcher and was confirmed under Major. The corresponding lurch to the right by labour exacerbated the situation further as it allowed the ultimately more dangerous SNP to take the abandoned territory

This wasn't part of the grand design of schemes

The prestige of the UK and its international standing is damaged as it starts to fragment. This is most certainly not encouraged by the establishment

So if we replace the parilamentary process of managed see saw we currently have, with one of elected dictatorship, and if Scotland has shown the regions a blue print of how to get out and reject this structure, what do you suppose the medium term prospect will be?

The tit bit they'll have to throw down is much wider regional devolution or risk wholesale disengagement and with it an erosion of legitimacy. Clearly the political classes couldn't take that, and ultimately the establishment won't either. At this jucture society starts to break down as the notion of choice is punctured and no longer offering hope or belief

History is full of examples of where small popular ideas that captured the zeitgeist turned out to have far reaching consequences. The simpler they appear, very often the more damaging they end up being

Having said that, there is also democratic deficit under this structure too that will need to be addressed. The short term solution is as you describe, but the longer term ramifications of this will be Wales and the northern England entering a period of widespread rebellion or disengagement.

Cliff notes: it's just like the Matrix, innit?
 
Has anyone else watched Frankie Boyle's programme on iPlayer? In it he shows a clip of a Scottish guy singing Rule Britannia whilst wearing an England shirt. What is that all about?
 
Is it still on iplayer? Whereabouts?

I can't stand Boyle but I'd like to see that. I could hazard a simple guess but I'd rather see it first.
 
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Agree. A nasty piece of work too

People slag the likes of Bernard manning, who was certainly Ott at times, but did he makes "jokes" about specific disabled children?
 
Agree. A nasty piece of work too

People slag the likes of Bernard manning, who was certainly Ott at times, but did he makes "jokes" about specific disabled children?

Given the behaviour of some of his TV peers, there's at least some possibility he may have been doing more than making jokes... :blink:
 
Wouldn't surprise me

He looks the part doesn't he? You wouldn't want to go on the pull with him that's for sure
 
Wouldn't surprise me

He looks the part doesn't he? You wouldn't want to go on the pull with him that's for sure
 
When one door closes, another one opens...

SalmondSubo.jpg.html
 
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