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Sea Bird V Sea The Stars

Sea Bird V STS as 3yos at level weights

  • Sea Bird

    Votes: 15 62.5%

  • Sea The Stars

    Votes: 7 29.2%

  • Too close to call

    Votes: 2 8.3%
  • Total voters
    24
Desert Orchid

Desert Orchid

Senior Jockey
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
28,432
I've come under criticism over at FF for daring to suggest Sea Bird could arguably give STS 7lbs and a beating.

What's the consensus on here?
 
Desert Orchid said:
I've come under criticism over at FF for daring to suggest Sea Bird could arguably give STS 7lbs and a beating.

What's the consensus on here?
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You are of course correct. Over middle-distances Sea-Bird could have given anything 7lb and a beating. People say that STS was never stretched (and I agree with them), but Sea-Bird would trot past Group 1 horses like they were swimming through treacle. He was head and shoulders above anything I've seen.
 
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We're just shooting the breeze here.... no harm considering it.

Over 1m-1m2f Sts, over 1m6f maybe Sts stamina would run out :D
 
I should have said the race is over 12f, the distance over which both won their respective Arcs.

If the question doesn't interest people they need add no comment.
 
A bit too distant for all but the coffin dodgers to weigh this one up, but how about STS vs Dancing brave?

Two things worth considering are that Dancing Brave certainly beat a real quality Arc field whereas STS only beat the likes of Fame and Glory

STS has the more complete profile but if there was one very slight (and its very slight) achilles heal, it would have been slight tendency to idle in front.

The awesome Dancing brave finish (and Zarakava too?) could just have caught him...

I would always fancy STS against a battler but slightly more wary against one that comes up quickly on the blindside...
 
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clivex said:
A bit too distant for all but the coffin dodgers to weigh this one up, but how about STS vs Dancing brave?

Two things worth considering are that Dancing Brave certainly beat a real quality Arc field whereas STS only beat the likes of Fame and Glory

STS has the more complete profile but if there was one very slight (and its very slight) achilles heal, it would have been slight tendency to idle in front.

The awesome Dancing brave finish (and Zarakava too?) could just have caught him...

I would always fancy STS against a battler but slightly more wary against one that comes up quickly on the blindside...
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Peintre Celebre would be another who turned in a brilliant absolute performance in the Arc (well in excess of anything STS has run to), but achieved nothing like STS has achieved in level of consistency and races won.

The way Dancing Brave finished his races was just sizzling. The irrepressible force to STS's imovable object.
 
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To be fair to DB, he only flopped in the Breeders which was at the end of a season as long in time as STS's (but one race less).The derby was all but won of course

Dancing Braves finish is still the most electrifying ive seen but STS possibly had more changes of gear?
 
Dont need loads of gears when your two options are fast and faster.... ;)

DB was more exciting to watch than STS. STS is undoubtedly a superstar, but for me,even allowing for my bias, it would be DB all the time.

(and OI clivex ! you speak for yourself about coffin dodging - I can remember it !!!) :p
 
Wouldn't know near enough about Sea Bird to compare him to Sea The Stars, but surely it's wrong to use the Arc as a barometer of STS's ability.

STS had more than gears and pace anyway as far as I'm concerned. He had that rare ability to display his consderable brilliance virtually every time he went to the well (and even when not at his best, he was far too good). The versatility and toughness he has displayed throughout this season mark him down as the greatest flat horse I have ever seen, slightly ahead of Dubai Millenium.

This is the type of horse that I for one will be able to look back on in years to come and remember exactly where I was (and my memory is notoriously bad!) for every single one of his runs, from his debut at the Curragh right through to the Arc. A horse to savour.
 
trackside528 said:
Wouldn't know near enough about Sea Bird to compare him to Sea The Stars, but surely it's wrong to use the Arc as a barometer of STS's ability.

STS had more than gears and pace anyway as far as I'm concerned. He had that rare ability to display his consderable brilliance virtually every time he went to the well (and even when not at his best, he was far too good). The versatility and toughness he has displayed throughout this season mark him down as the greatest flat horse I have ever seen, slightly ahead of Dubai Millenium.

This is the type of horse that I for one will be able to look back on in years to come and remember exactly where I was (and my memory is notoriously bad!) for every single one of his runs, from his debut at the Curragh right through to the Arc. A horse to savour.
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A couple of points, if I may...

The comparison over 12f was because I've been taken to task over at FF suggesting SB could arguably have given STS 7lbs and a beating on their Arc form.

I have no doubt the STS we saw in France wasn't the STS we saw at Sandown and I have no doubt SB's Arc was far stronger in depth. Can anyone really imagine Youmie getting within two lengths of Reliance, let alone SB?

If you believe STS had more gears than SB, check the various Youtube clips of the latter in action. While it's possible he (STS) did, it's hard not to be taken aback by SB's cruising speed. I couldn't envisage even STS getting SB off the bit in the middle stages of a race.

I'm glad you mentioned DM. He was a super horse too, and his DWC win and his demolition of Sendawar at Ascot will live long in the memory.

I will remember STS as the champion of his era and a great one at that but even though I was just about to turn 10 when he won his Derby and was just past that birthday when he won his Arc and therefore can't remember him much, every time I try to analyse SB's form I find myself likening him to Arkle, which is going some.

It should pain me to accept he was better than Brigadier Gerard because he was the superstar of my teen years but it doesn't. There's no pain in accepting that something is just so good as to be almost unbelievable. It's to be treasured.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I'm glad you mentioned DM. He was a super horse too, and his DWC win and his demolition of Sendawar at Ascot will live long in the memory.
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Same here. In all the fuss over Sea the Stars it's been somewhat ignored that we have had a 140 animal since 1986. Unforunately he didn't win any of the usual sexy races.
 
Speaking as a 60-year-old coffin dodger (thankyou for reminding me of my mortality Clive), all I can say is that whether it's Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Dancing Brave, Brigadier Gerard, Shergar, or Sea the Stars -- unquestionably brilliant as these great champions were -- no racehorse has ever thrilled me as much as Sea-Bird ll. That imperious and nonchalant dismissal of what is still argued today to be the best Arc field ever assembled, will be forever etched in my memory.

Great, great champions have succeeded him, but none have ever quite matched that WOW factor.
 
Desert Orchid said:
A couple of points, if I may...

The comparison over 12f was because I've been taken to task over at FF suggesting SB could arguably have given STS 7lbs and a beating on their Arc form.

I have no doubt the STS we saw in France wasn't the STS we saw at Sandown and I have no doubt SB's Arc was far stronger in depth. Can anyone really imagine Youmie getting within two lengths of Reliance, let alone SB?

If you believe STS had more gears than SB, check the various Youtube clips of the latter in action. While it's possible he (STS) did, it's hard not to be taken aback by SB's cruising speed. I couldn't envisage even STS getting SB off the bit in the middle stages of a race.

I'm glad you mentioned DM. He was a super horse too, and his DWC win and his demolition of Sendawar at Ascot will live long in the memory.

I will remember STS as the champion of his era and a great one at that but even though I was just about to turn 10 when he won his Derby and was just past that birthday when he won his Arc and therefore can't remember him much, every time I try to analyse SB's form I find myself likening him to Arkle, which is going some.

It should pain me to accept he was better than Brigadier Gerard because he was the superstar of my teen years but it doesn't. There's no pain in accepting that something is just so good as to be almost unbelievable. It's to be treasured.
Click to expand...

Hard to argue with any of that, Desert Orchid.

I still maintain that Secretariat's Belmont was the greatest performance I've ever seen, but no point trying to make comparisons between Secretariat and the likes of Sea Bird II really.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoFquax2F-k

Uncanny Trackside. I was just about to post this when i saw your comment

Quite frankly its an almost ridiculous performance. Astonishing

Its hard not to believe that taht is the most astounding grp/grade one performance of the lot. Watched some of his other races too and whilst they werent 30 lengths (30!!), he cruised so easily....


Sorry Micheal O...im no kid myself.....its just the picture of the bath chair and occasional shouts of SEA BIRD! as the soup dribbles down the chin whilst a rather awful smell fills the room....
 
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Galileo said:
You seem to feel the need to have a pop at Fame And Glory everything anything remotely negative is said about STS.
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Don't be daft :rolleyes:it isn't directed at F & G - just his biggest fan :D

The point is that STS like Sea Bird made proven Group 1 performers look ordinary . In fact no less than eight of them in the Arc.

I suggest this is yet another thread when it is being taken as fact that ratings accurately reflect ability . The idea that STS was a significantly worse animal in the Arc than the Eclipse is simply absurd - the horse had notably filled out and was a majestic beast . His turn of foot to cut through several G1 winners from an unpromising position was electric.

I was at York - he was so unfussed after the race he could have gone round again and that was when he had been let down after the Eclipse .

Ratings fans just cannot comprehend STS's ability because he does not fit into their mental paradigm . He had buckets and buckets in hand on Arc day .

AOB's error was not to understand , as Paddy Prendergast did in 1965 that it was wise to make hay whilst the sun shined .
 
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