Sea The Stars - Retirement Announced

Headstrong said:
Yes, but they hardly need to risk a George Washington scenario.
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They won't have a George Washington scenario as that classic was run on dirt whereas this one will be run on Pro-Ride at Santa Anita for the second year running. Pro-Ride is similar to Polytrack so even after heavy rain, it couldn't turn sloppy, it would ride the same, if slightly quicker. That, and it's in California so it's unlikely to rain!

I can't understand all the knocking of the Breeders Cup, it's the nearest thing we have a to a sport "world cup" and a definite end to the flat season (something which is often yearned for so much). The BC Classic is the second richest race in the World and is seen worldwide as one of the most prestigious races in the World. To dismiss it as a "mickey mouse race" is like saying that the World Cup is a mickey mouse football tournament!

Oxx and Tsui know full well that taking in the Classic would be the icing on the cake. He's proven himself over 1m, 1m2f and 1m4f on turf, taking 1m2f on an artificial surface would show him to be an ever greater champion than he already is. The Arc for my money is the most prestigious turf race in the world but if he was mine, I'd be more concerned with him lining up at Santa Anita than at Longchamp for the kudos it would bring both in Europe and America.

I can't see why he can't take in both races (I'd love him to as I'm attending both) as there is a significant gap between them but I fully understand why they'd swerve Longchamp in preference for California. His CV is already one of a true champion, an Arc and a BC Classic on it would make him one of the greatest of all time.
 
He could win either race in a canter but I'd imagine the Arc would be the one they would want more. The classic was an after thought for the likes of Galileo, George Washingtion etc and it showed.
 
The thing about winning the Classic is that it will open up an another market for him when he is a stallion....something the Arc will not do as he has achieved so much in Europe already and I say that as someone who rates the Arc as the most important race of the year anywhere.
 
Does it really though? Winning the Classic on the current surface is not much better than winning a listed race at Lingfield in my mind. He won't meet any opposition in either race so the Arc must be the first stop.
 
Gearoid said:
Does it really though? Winning the Classic on the current surface is not much better than winning a listed race at Lingfield in my mind. He won't meet any opposition in either race so the Arc must be the first stop.
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He'll have American breeders wanting to use him as well if he wins the Classic. Could even open the possibility of someone over there wanting to purchase him for stallion duties....something that will not happen if he didnt run and win the race.
 
I disagree. On the Pro-Ride the Europeans breed horses are on a level playing field. Sea The Stars would be of no more commercial value by winning the Classic, that's why I think they will try and get him to line up in the Arc. In fairness he must be 1/1,000,000 to be the top rated horse this year so what difference does it make what race he wins from here. In previous years with other European horses it was commercially attractive to win the classic but I don't see how it applies this season.
 
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Also, with the classic being run on artificial surfaces more, it means less people will dismiss it as a "Lingfield Listed race" (please!) and see it as a regular slot in the calendar meaning his value will increase more as he'll have shown he's capable of going on the surface which is going to be used more and more in American racing in the future.

I understand Churchill are hosting it in 2010 (Dirt) but then it's going to Keeneland? (Polytrack)

Using venues with synthetic surfaces is going to become the norm, not the odd year now and again.
 
How anyone can think Sea The Stars will be worth more by winning the Classic rather than the Arc is beyond me.
 
"Timeform go provisionally 140 Sea The Stars.

Quote:
Irish Champion Stakes win is joint third-best performance since 1970
.
Sea The Stars has joined the list of all-time greats after his stunning Irish Champion Stakes win at Leopardstown, according to world-renowned ratings organisation Timeform - and there is the mouth-watering prospect of better to come.
Timeform have provisionally given John Oxx's colt a huge rating of 140, which puts him alongside Shergar, Dancing Brave and Dubai Millennium as the third best horse since 1970.
Only Brigadier Gerard (144) and Mill Reef (141) have been allotted bigger ratings by Timeform since 1970.

Timeform's Flat Editor Jamie Lynch commented: "Mastercraftsman (130) appears to have run his race in third, and there is also good reason for believing that Fame And Glory deserves a rating of 135, and to be bracketed in the same league as Sinndar (134), Galileo (134) and St Jovite (135).
"Therefore the form of the race looks solid, and we have given Sea The Stars a provisional rating of 140.
"Furthermore, Sea The Stars again didn't look all out, leaving the impression there could be an even better performance in him if ever comes up against something able to test him fully.
"He should now be classed as one of the all-time greats."


Hmmmm! Fame And Glory given a figure of 135, not bad for a plodder!!

Seriously, it does seem rather high for a horse running over a distance thought to be shorter than his optimum. It may be wrong to think that Mastercraftsman has run up to his best mark.

I think Timeform may be giving Sea The Stars a rating they think he deserves rather than one he has actually achieved. I would have no argument with 135+++++!:D
 
Gearoid said:
How anyone can think Sea The Stars will be worth more by winning the Classic rather than the Arc is beyond me.
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Commercially winning the Classic is the Holy Grail. Like it or not the Americans have a superiority complex as regards their horses. In order to get respect from the average Anerican breeder you've got to beat them in their own back yard and beat their best. If you can do that it's $$$$$$....

For some reason the Americans don't get that excited about European horses slogging through the muck in Paris.
 
Colin,

I agree with your comments entirely - no way on earth is fame and glory a 135 horse over 10f. 130 is even pushing it.
 
Sheikh said:
Commercially winning the Classic is the Holy Grail. Like it or not the Americans have a superiority complex as regards their horses. In order to get respect from the average Anerican breeder you've got to beat them in their own back yard and beat their best. If you can do that it's $$$$$$....

For some reason the Americans don't get that excited about European horses slogging through the muck in Paris.
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If the horse was going to stand in the US that would be pertinent but if as expected he goes to the Irish National Stud - what is the issue ?
 
Ardross said:
If the horse was going to stand in the US that would be pertinent but if as expected he goes to the Irish National Stud - what is the issue ?
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American breeders could still use him standing in Ireland...assuming he does stand in Ireland of course.
 
Ardross said:
If the horse was going to stand in the US that would be pertinent but if as expected he goes to the Irish National Stud - what is the issue ?
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I'm not sure it's expected as much as wished for.

I think the far eastern market will also be more influenced by a win in the U.S than by an Arc win. They don't shop here as much as they used to but Sts and a classic win would be just the carrot, assuming of course that the wish comes through. There will be a hell of a lot of $pressure$ for him to stand in States if he can win the classic.
 
I thought Rock of G was probably better than 133.Shouldn't have been beaten by domedriver.

Highest Timeform Ratings of last 10 years
140 Dubai Millenium,Sea the stars
137 Montjeu,
136 Hawk Wing, Sakhee
135 Manduro
134 Galileo, Hurricane Run, Sinndar, Rip Van Winkle
133 Alamshar, Authorized, Dalakhani, Falbrav, George Washington, Raven’s Pass, Rock Of Gibraltar, Zarkava

Highest Timeform Ratings of all-time
145 Sea Bird II
144 Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel
142 Abernant, Ribot, Windy City
141 Mill Reef
140 Dancing Brave, Dubai Millennium, Shergar, Vaguely Noble,Sea the stars
 
Hypothetical question here - would there be an reason why STS might not take to a synthetic surface? I'm not suggesting he wouldn't as it's not something I know enough about but could that be a possibility? I know Ravens Pass and Henry made the switch from turf easily enough last year and STS probably wouldn't have any problems but surely it doesn't suit all horses?
 
Sheikh said:
I thought Rock of G was probably better than 133.Shouldn't have been beaten by domedriver.

Highest Timeform Ratings of last 10 years
140 Dubai Millenium,Sea the stars
137 Montjeu,
136 Hawk Wing, Sakhee
135 Manduro
134 Galileo, Hurricane Run, Sinndar, Rip Van Winkle
133 Alamshar, Authorized, Dalakhani, Falbrav, George Washington, Raven’s Pass, Rock Of Gibraltar, Zarkava

Highest Timeform Ratings of all-time
145 Sea Bird II
144 Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel
142 Abernant, Ribot, Windy City
141 Mill Reef
140 Dancing Brave, Dubai Millennium, Shergar, Vaguely Noble,Sea the stars
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I often have a lot of time for Timeform, but they are prone to giving ratings based on pre-conceived notions, which is extremely frustrating. A length beating of Mubtaker does not and never will under any circumstances constitute a 133 rating, regardless of how good Dalakhani was and could have shown in better conditions (sorry Betsmate! :))
 
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Colin Phillips said:
"Timeform go provisionally 140 Sea The Stars.

Quote:
Irish Champion Stakes win is joint third-best performance since 1970
.
Sea The Stars has joined the list of all-time greats after his stunning Irish Champion Stakes win at Leopardstown, according to world-renowned ratings organisation Timeform - and there is the mouth-watering prospect of better to come.
Timeform have provisionally given John Oxx's colt a huge rating of 140, which puts him alongside Shergar, Dancing Brave and Dubai Millennium as the third best horse since 1970.
Only Brigadier Gerard (144) and Mill Reef (141) have been allotted bigger ratings by Timeform since 1970.

Timeform's Flat Editor Jamie Lynch commented: "Mastercraftsman (130) appears to have run his race in third, and there is also good reason for believing that Fame And Glory deserves a rating of 135, and to be bracketed in the same league as Sinndar (134), Galileo (134) and St Jovite (135).
"Therefore the form of the race looks solid, and we have given Sea The Stars a provisional rating of 140.
"Furthermore, Sea The Stars again didn't look all out, leaving the impression there could be an even better performance in him if ever comes up against something able to test him fully.
"He should now be classed as one of the all-time greats."


Hmmmm! Fame And Glory given a figure of 135, not bad for a plodder!!

Seriously, it does seem rather high for a horse running over a distance thought to be shorter than his optimum. It may be wrong to think that Mastercraftsman has run up to his best mark.

I think Timeform may be giving Sea The Stars a rating they think he deserves rather than one he has actually achieved. I would have no argument with 135+++++!:D
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That't right Colin. Ratings agencies are not supposed to build in how much more they might have run to into the actual figure (that's what the + and Ps are for), otherwise Montjeu's KG win for example would have looked more like a Cheltenham Gold Cup rating.

I think these Timeform ratings for both Fame and STS look about 4-5lbs too high.
 
Galileo said:
Is 135 the highest rating Timeform have given to a Ballydoyle horse?
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Hawk Wing is still the highest-rated Ballydoyle horse according to Timeform on 136 - it should be mentioned that his provisional Lockinge rating was massively high and subsequently adjusted down to 136.

The same could happen to Fame and STS... exciting times though.
 
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As anyone who bothers to look at ratings more than once a year will be aware, the BHA handicapper has gone higher in relative terms than Timeform has. Timeform's ratings have been around for decades, the BHA/BHB/Jockey Club's "definitive" ones for much shorter, and they are pitched at a lower level. Similarly, Racing Post is a relatively new kid on the block and their ratings have been pitched fractionally lower than Timeform's. There is not much point in discussing ratings without making it clear what their context is. Incidentally, Hawk Wing's "massive" Timeform rating was 138 before his only run subsequent to the Lockinge and 136 afterwards.
 
SteveM said:
I think these Timeform ratings for both Fame and STS look about 4-5lbs too high.
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My initial thought was that they were spot on because I think MCM is a 130 animal at his best, but I think the pace and the ground saw him run out of stamina on saturday and he probably ran below level he attained at York and Ascot.

137/132/127 for me.
 
J Alfred Prufrock said:
As anyone who bothers to look at ratings more than once a year will be aware, the BHA handicapper has gone higher in relative terms than Timeform has. Timeform's ratings have been around for decades, the BHA/BHB/Jockey Club's "definitive" ones for much shorter, and they are pitched at a lower level. Similarly, Racing Post is a relatively new kid on the block and their ratings have been pitched fractionally lower than Timeform's. There is not much point in discussing ratings without making it clear what their context is. Incidentally, Hawk Wing's "massive" Timeform rating was 138 before his only run subsequent to the Lockinge and 136 afterwards.
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So can anyone post their (timeform/official/RPR) respective ratings for each of STS's races this season? I think that would help us appreciate the differentials. I'll post my own later this evening.
 
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