Sea The Stars - Retirement Announced

I always prfered to call her Zarakava anyway. Sounded better somehow

But, as Euro and others say, theres no way she can only be rated on the basis of lengths and pounds. Arguably she won her races with more ease than STS too.
 
I think that confirms all you guys views of F&G..in a "normal" year he would have been the superstar

STS has to be something special..he basically walked up to F&G ..sat alongside ..then just jogged past him

there is more to come

and again...did anyone think he looked a non staying type?

as he got into the last furlong he was extending

the Arc looks like being one occasion when they can really give him full reign and see just how much is really in that tank..if it is to be his last race..which I would prefer rather than him going over the Atlantic
 
imagine said:
Agreed, and that is exactly what makes a topic like this so interesting. Generally, the top class horses particularly the classic winners retire at the end of their 3yo season, so there's very little opportunity to compare the generations of classic winners even from one year to the next. Because of that most of the debate on whether horse A is superior or comparable to horse B is based entirely on people's opinion.

There are so many factors to take into account when trying to compare them. For example, if you took all the Epsom Derby winners from the last 30 years and compared the winning times of each horse you'd also have to factor in the going on the day of the race as that may also have been a contributing factor.

I would think that the majority of people on here are agreed that STS is an example of an exceptionally talented racehorse but all of us can only guess at whether he would beat the likes of Sea Bird, Mill Reef, Nijinsky etc etc. Personally I think one of the reasons the STS can be considered a great horse is that he's proven himself to be effective over a wide range of distances at the top level, together with the easy manner in which he's won his races. That's quite unusual in racing these days, much more common to see a horse raced over a specific distance and of course it took 20 years between Nashwan and STS for a horse to do the Guineas/Derby double even though plenty of others have tried.

I did look for the international classifications for top rated horses but can only find as far back as 2007 so had a look at Timeform's highest rated horses. I'm sure these have been posted on here in the past and I don't know how they compare to the IC ratings

145 Sea Bird II
144 Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel
142 Abernant, Ribot, Windy City
141 Mill Reef
140 Dancing Brave, Dubai Millenium, Shergar, Vaguely Noble
139 Generous, Pappa Fourway, Reference Point

I find it quite interesting that Nijinsky, generally considered one of the greats, isn't in that list and that the last Epsom Derby winner featured was racing 18 years ago. As of 26/08/09 Timeform had STS on 136 so not far off the top few and of course that could well change by the end of the season.
Click to expand...

Shows how ratings are fallible ! - Nijinsky was rated 138 by Timeform I think. Watching him in his races there is a lot in common in how Nijinsky and STS win their races - the difference is that Nijinsky was very highly strung .

As for AOB , Galileo- I do not agree that I ever said that STS would be at risk of being beaten on good ground. I have read what AOB is quoted as saying after York , that was the definite implication . As for RVW there was nothing wrong with him before the Eclipse yet he was comfortably shaken off .
 
Euronymous said:
That is what is so wrong about ratings though. It shouldn't need a vintage crop of rivals to illustrate how great a horse is. She had absolutely mountains to spare when winning the Arc last year. Even allowing for her sex allowance that had to be a 4/5lb beating of Youmzain who hit 127/8 in both his Arc efforts.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure she did have mountains to spare, though. And I can't get Youmzain above 125 in any race, let alone his Arcs.
 
Gamla Stan said:
Zarkava never had the chance to beat 130 rated animals; to say Sea The Stars would take the piss out of her is nothing more than an assumption. She won all her races with such consummate ease that it's difficult to put a figure or even get a handle on how good she would have been against an opposition of Sea The Stars ability.
Click to expand...

Of course it's an assumption on my part. The same assumption that said STS would take Conduit apart, that RVW would take Paco Boy apart and that STS would be too good for F&G. As I said in the post above, I don't think she won that easily in beating nothing of real note.

But I ahve been known to be wrong in the past. Once or twice :)
 
I am not sure RVW took Paco Boy apart . Hughes gave RVW way too much rope that day . I am not saying he would have beaten RVW ridden closer to the pace but he would have been much closer . RVW doesn't put any distance between himself and PB from 3 out .

STS did take F & G apart .
 
EC1 said:
the Arc looks like being one occasion when they can really give him full reign and see just how much is really in that tank..if it is to be his last race..which I would prefer rather than him going over the Atlantic
Click to expand...

I don't see why they can't for both. It would be a crying shame if he wasn't able to strut his stuff against the Americans and give them another kicking in their own back yard. He'd batter the life out of them over 1m2f on pro-ride, the BC classic is just tailor made for him.

In this day and age, it isn't good enough for horses to stay in their own continents. To end in Santa Anita on a winning note after taking in the Arc would just put him amongst the greats, if not the greatest. I'd love them to carry on and go for Japan and Hong Kong but that's asking too much of him obviously.
 
Ardross said:
I am not sure RVW took Paco Boy apart . Hughes gave RVW way too much rope that day . I am not saying he would have beaten RVW ridden closer to the pace but he would have been much closer . RVW doesn't put any distance between himself and PB from 3 out .

STS did take F & G apart .
Click to expand...

The only difference in the spanking RVW gave Paco Boy and the one STS gave F&G is that you have a soft spot for Paco Boy and nothing else!
 
In this day and age, it isn't good enough for horses to stay in their own continents.

even with 6 straight G1's if he wins the Arc?

what is so special about going to the breeders cup to beat their turf horses who are classed as second rate compared to the dirt horses?

i don't see why he needs to beat moderate horses over there at all to be "great"

6 straight G1's against strong oppo pees all over the breeders cup
 
It'd increase his value worldwide for starters and he wouldn't be taking on their turf horses, Zenyatta (winner of 6 grade ones on an artifical surface and unbeaten in all starts) and Summer Bird would certainly line up against him and whilst I have no doubt he'd beat them and beat them convincingly, the Americans would really stand up and take note of what a world superstar he is.
 
Yes, but they hardly need to risk a George Washington scenario. That horse did still have something to prove, STS does not. That awful night is still seared in my memory, and I wasn't even watching live, just following on TH and Betfair! There are only so many people prepared to pay the stud fee he will command, and they will pay it anyway.
 
Headstrong said:
Yes, but they hardly need to risk a George Washington scenario. That horse did still have something to prove, STS does not. That awful night is still seared in my memory, and I wasn't even watching live, just following on TH and Betfair! There are only so many people prepared to pay the stud fee he will command, and they will pay it anyway.
Click to expand...

Agreed as the majority of the Americans consider dirt racing superior anyway. Certain traks moving to the ProRide surface indicates a slight change in that but not enough (as yet) for a win in the BC make much of a difference to them.
 
Galileo said:
The only difference in the spanking RVW gave Paco Boy and the one STS gave F&G is that you have a soft spot for Paco Boy and nothing else!
Click to expand...

Tosh :p

RVW was gifted a three to four length lead and PB closed before accepting the situation close home

STS cantered past F & G without being asked any sort of question.
 
I too agree with Imagine: "" Personally I think one of the reasons the STS can be considered a great horse is that he's proven himself to be effective over a wide range of distances at the top level, together with the easy manner in which he's won his races. That's quite unusual in racing these days, much more common to see a horse raced over a specific distance ""

STS always wins with a lot in hand - as Kinane said yesterday, he sent him forward to go and win by 2++ lengths yesterday and the horse almost said to him 'if I must, but that's your lot'! He will never get the accolades from some people who are impressed by the likes of Montjeu, because he will never win by very far. He knows just what he has to do - and does it without fail. Anbd don't forget Kinane rode a few of those we are putting up as 'equals' - certainly many of the best of the last 20 years - and he is in no doubt!

But that characteristic of winning economically is part of his greatness, to my mind: he WASTES NO ENERGY AT ALL, neither in the prelims nor in races. He lacks charisma, or character, for that very reason. But he is the consummate racehorse, and would thrash most of those mentioned on here as comparisons - imo.

A match with Goldikova would certainly be of interest. But I'm pretty sure he'd have beaten Zarkava easily enough. I really hope he won't be taken out of the Arc because of the ground - a great horse should not be totally ground dependent; but with the Breeders Cup being so close, they might feel they had to if it were borderline Soft. I'd rather he ran anyway.
 
Last edited:
I see no need for him to go to the US - I suspect if he wins the Arc he won't . He would be more likely to go for a final hurrah in the Champion.
 
Hamm said:
I'm definitely there.

How do you judge the chances of both in the Arc?

For me (i haven't backed Sea the Stars for the Arc), it looked like Sea the Stars would win by further, the further they went.
Click to expand...

I confess I was taken with STS in the Irish Champion Stakes. The turn of foot he showed was impressive (something you need in the Arc - Sea- Bird, Dancing Brave, Peintre Celebre and Montjeu all had this). I'd now make him favourite for the Arc, but also believe that Fame and one or two of the older horses have a chance against him at 12 furlongs.
 
Ardross said:
I see no need for him to go to the US - I suspect if he wins the Arc he won't . He would be more likely to go for a final hurrah in the Champion.
Click to expand...

I think the Champion after the Arc is very risky. There isn't enough time to recover. Especially if the Arc takes him out of his comfort zone, which it might.
 
SteveM said:
Too high. That's the equivalent of Dancing Brave's Arc run... I'm not having that!
Click to expand...

Why not? They're rating the horse through Delegator and MCM for me. The former is a 127/8 animal whom MCM beat over a mile when a tad short of his best. 130 seems about right for him over a couple of furlongs further and STS certainly gave him a 10lb beating yesterday.

Of course the other way to look at it so it's not quite as shocking - at 140 he's only a couple of pounds better than Celtic Swing in the RP Trophy.
 
Back
Top