Seamus Heffernan

The chances of sitting behind Billys Dream giving him a tow past Hail Caesar were precisely nil. Once it was clear that Jakarta Jazz wasn't being competitive, Heffernan had to kick on, whether he thought it was ideal or not. He was riding the even money favourite, so riding for second isn't acceptable.
 
So there were two people involved in not trying to secure the best possible position for DRUMBEAT, weren't there?

The trainer has no chance to change his instructions when the jockey leaves the parade ring. Maybe through the first furlong O'Brien, if he had a walkie talkie link to Heffernan, might have said to go in pursuit. Following instrcutions is no excuse for a jock in a race where adapting is important. Instrcutions are built on the premise that a race goes a certain way i.e. Jakarta Jazz would bring Drumbeat to HC. This clearly went out the window before the home turn. Trainer not to blame there as he can't change the instrcutions. Jockey's fault. As I mentioned before, Baldings horse beat Frozen Fire because the jock used his head when the race changed and disobeyed orders. Your jock has got to have the option to ride the horse the way the race is run.
 
In terms of winning the race, I think he put the horse in the only position to give him a chance of winning...that by sticking himself back in behind the eventual third and fourth, they would bring him to Hail Caesar to mount a challenge. He is never the type of horse to try and single handedly close down on a run away leader...he just does not have the temperment for it.

If he went after him from the turn in I think he would have been beaten further and probably lost his runner up spot.

The horse had precisely no chance of winning from where he was put. You have to do the right thing (in this case mount a pursuit before it is a lost cause) and hope for the best. The arguement being offered in Heffernan's defence has made him out to be a complete numbskull.

Have to say I always did like the way Hc kept doing his best in all his races even when being swallowed up by far superior horses. Would he take a hurdle Cantoris ?
 
Jockeys can't really win

we know that AOB gives strict instructions..Murtagh himself has been made to look a tit this year due to this..until AOB gives jockeys a freer hand this will ahpppen

its the trainer that should be questioned when the jockey is too scared to ignore ..to the letter ..instructions

its the sign of a control freak the way he won't let jockeys use common sense
 
You can't ask the stewards to ignore a ride like that because he was riding to instructions. We'd end up absolving the jocks of all responsibility.
 
i don't expect it to be ignored...in the situation that AOB puts jocks..they are absolved...if a trainer can't trust a jock to make decisions them it should be trainer who gets it in the neck when it goes wrong
 
well maybe its time it changed

jocks should have to state before a race to the stewards if they are riding to strict orders or not..then if those orders don't fit the race pace they are absolved and the trainer has to answer

as Heffernan says..what should I do?..not ride to orders and lose the rides?

he is in an impossible position..purely down to the trainer...why should he be put under that kind of extra pressure

do you think Murtagh wanted to look a dickhead at Chester earlier in the season?..do you think he knew better?

so why did HE get pilloried when he was "riding to strict orders"..even though they walked for most of the race?

to me the situation is a disgrace for the jocks put in these positions.

the above idea makes so much sense..so it will never happen..trainers never have to answer for their "instructions"
 
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It's an interesting debate, because it does raise the issue of whether a jockey's loyalty is to his employer, who wants things done a certain way, or to the wider remit of racing in general (the punters, the stewards, the televised image, etc.). Jockeys are damned if they ride to instructions and fail; damned if they try to ride out of the instructions because they think they're not going to help them win (the Cantoris method), and only place; lauded if they abandon the trainer's instructions and win... which makes their employer look a prat, and might mean they're soon seeking employment elsewhere. So, with one person or another, they're in dog doo-doo, unless they commit a flawless 5l win on the favourite.

I don't think critics can start massaging the scenario too far, Cantoris: I'm sure there are hundreds of races every year where the trainer thinks "Bugger! Got that wrong!", but that's what trainers are paid to do - figure the best way to run their charges, and instruct their jockeys to work with that figuring. AOB clearly figured that it was best to hold up DRUMBEAT, and that's what his jockey did. As said above, he's a trainer who doesn't even let his trusty old THLs do up the girths, for God's sake! He's clearly very precise to the point of, perhaps, compulsion, so I doubt that jockeys get any pats on the back for riding against his orders.

So, it's true - jockeys can't win. If the way that his trainer told him to ride the horse meant that Heffernan couldn't put it into the best position to win from, then the trainer is responsible for the result. I don't, honestly, see how anyone can see that outcome any differently. His instructions weren't "Hold him up, then come out late, but if you want to do it all quite differently, then make it up as you go along", which is what you'd have preferred. If that's the case, you don't need a trainer, do you? You'd just need a stable lad, make the entries yourself, hire the jock, and tell him to have at it the best way he can!
 
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would it be fair to say that a lot of trainers let the jockey ride to suit the race pace?

its funny how Heffernan comes in for this kind of thing quite a lot isn't it?

what is happening here?..is it that AOB isn't interested in how a race pans out..he just wants to see what happens when horse A is held up

he is a good trainer..but he has meglomanic tendencies.

if he could..i think he would ride them himself
 
what is happening here?..is it that AOB isn't interested in how a race pans out..he just wants to see what happens when horse A is held up

It wouldn't be the first time he was accused of using the racecourse as a training ground.
 
well maybe its time it changed

jocks should have to state before a race to the stewards if they are riding to strict orders or not..then if those orders don't fit the race pace they are absolved and the trainer has to answer

That won't work.

As an example, Colm tells his jocks how a horse reacts to certain things like being in front, will need the run, is green, taks a hold etc etc. He then gives guidelines as to where he wants a horse to be placed in a "normal race". The jock is given free rein to do what he feels is appropriate and if Colm disagrees afterwards then the jock won't get the ride again. But it is rare that a jock takes the initiative and it doesn't work out. In fact the bigger jocks are normally the ones that don't follow instructions at all and make a complete mess of it.
 
If Heffernan says he was riding to instructions and O'Brien confirms that and suggests he's happy with the ride, then he should be punished as well.
 
If Heffernan says he was riding to instructions and O'Brien confirms that and suggests he's happy with the ride, then he should be punished as well.

Quite so, either by design or incompetence Drumbeat was never given a chance. If it wasn’t tragic it would be laughable that Heffernan then claims that he “…rides for Aidan O’Brien not the punter”… the inference is too bad to be true... surely Ballydoyle didn't intend the other one to win… shock horror... firing squad at dawn.
 
The more I have watched it, I must admit the worse it looks while Heffernan's comments afterwards were just dumb.
 
Okay, but the more you watch it, does it make AOB's instructions look any more realistic? No-one seems to seriously want to challenge the wisdom of St. Aiden.
 
Okay, but the more you watch it, does it make AOB's instructions look any more realistic? No-one seems to seriously want to challenge the wisdom of St. Aiden.


thats the problem



the jockey works for the trainer..this trainer wants horses ridden to the letter..pace regardless..after the race the jockey in interview passes on trainers comments..and yet the jockey is dumb?

how does that work then?

should he have not divulged the daft instructions?...made out it were his daft idea?
 
the jockey works for the trainer..this trainer wants horses ridden to the letter..pace regardless..after the race the jockey in interview passes on trainers comments..and yet the jockey is dumb?

how does that work then?

Well whatever way you look at it he is dumb.

1) For Following riding instructions to the letter even when it became obvious they gave the horse no chance of winning.

2)For initially showing loyalty and obedience to his trainer and following said instructions to the letter and than undoing all the kudos he might get from the boss by dumping his employer in it afterwards.

3) For bitching about the stewards for doing their job.
 
Well whatever way you look at it he is dumb.

1) For Following riding instructions to the letter even when it became obvious they gave the horse no chance of winning.

2)For initially showing loyalty and obedience to his trainer and following said instructions to the letter and than undoing all the kudos he might get from the boss by dumping his employer in it afterwards.

3) For bitching about the stewards for doing their job.

1. if he didn't he would lose his job - Murtagh is treated the same way - remember Chester? - one of the slowest races in the history of horse racing - Murtagh sits at back on stayer ..result is embaraassing- is he dumb as well?

2. what was he supposed to do afterwards?..say yes it was all my idea - i'm clueless

3. you would bitch in the same predicament he is put in time and again

who insists these instructions are carried out to the letter?

we all agree the instructions are stupid

who is to blame?

if AOB rode these horses as well as trained them..would you be slating him same as you would Heffernan?

jockeys = easy targets
 
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only a bit though :D

if it were any other trainer that constantly got jockeys these kinds of drubbings they would be ripped to shreds

Murtagh at Chester..is the worst ride i've seen for somewhile..no way did he have any input in that ride..it was just..well he told me to sit back..so I am doing

jockey gets it in neck every time though..:confused:
 
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