Sprinter Sacre: should he run at further distances?

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Len Madeiros

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I've never quite understood why Henderson is so unequivocal in his statements that SS will not run over 2 miles plus, with a longer term view of running in a KG. The horse is gelded and has no possible re-sale value at stud - so what if he were to suffer defeat attempting a longer distance? At least we'd all know that he didn't stay and that he would be exclusively campaigned at 2 miles. His reputation would not be tarnished in any way.

So, the question is why won't Henderson and the owners risk the great horse beyond 2 miles?
 
Len Madeiros said:
I've never quite understood why Henderson is so unequivocal in his statements that SS will not run over 2 miles plus, with a longer term view of running in a KG. The horse is gelded and has no possible re-sale value at stud - so what if he were to suffer defeat attempting a longer distance? At least we'd all know that he didn't stay and that he would be exclusively campaigned at 2 miles. His reputation would not be tarnished in any way.

So, the question is why won't Henderson and the owners risk the great horse beyond 2 miles?
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Basically, because the bulk of prize money in chasing is either at 2m or 3m+, and Nicky H thinks the horse has too much speed for him to be as effective over the longer trip.
As things stand, he can probably pick up around 400k per season for the next 3/4 years, without ever being asked a question.
 
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They have the Gold cup winner in their stable so no point trying that route.

2 and a half mile races do not carry the prestige of 2m chases so see no reason to step him up.


Enjoy him at 2
 
Thanks for your informative answers, chaps.

It's a shame that the economics of racing dictate these decisions. But it was always thus, I suppose. Arkle and Flyingbolt were always kept apart.
 
We should consider ourselves lucky that Paul Nicholls didn't campaign Kauto and Denman the same way... how easy would it have been to let Kauto mop up the 2 mile and 2 and a half races with Denman for the 3 milers..
 
Ardross said:
Kauto stayed Sprinter is considered very unlikely to do so .
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What evidence was there that Kauto stayed before they tried it? Bugger all.

The only time Sprinter Sacre was stepped up in trip he was indeed beaten (2m 4f hurdles at Ascot) - but he was also beaten in the Supreme over 2 miles, which he clearly has no problem getting over fences at the same course. It's impossible to conclusively state that a lack of stamina was why he was beaten at Ascot.

I don't think the correct approach with the horse is to wrap him in cotton wool at this point in his career - as he gets older, he will lose the speed which makes him so supreme at 2 miles. At least try him over a longer trip in the near future so it's obvious what path to take with him once that stage arrives.
 
The owner said about 14 months ago he could run over further but Nicky Henderson is very shrewd and knows at any time it suits him he can turn round and say "Now he settles better I think he may get further".

Right now it suits him to say he's all speed bla bla bla when everyone else looks at the horse and the way he finishes full of running and says surely he'd get further.

You have to ask what would his possible target be if he did step him up> Obviously the King George at Kempton but Long Run still draws breath and Finian's Rainbow is far from dead. Bob's Worth will never run in the race as the track is way to short for him

For the Ryanair Riverside Theatre may never win another one so he'll be looking to send Simonsig in that direction once the owner gets the silly ideas of beating Sprinter out of his head.

2015 may be a lot different, Long Gun and Finian's may no longer be serious King George horses. That is when he'll step Sprinter up if ever.
 
If I was minted enough to own this horse ( and in fairness i jnow little about the owners wealth) I would like to think that I would want the horse to exploit his potential. People obsess about too much. If that was all they were in ownership for, then they are in the wrong game

I'm with fu here. There is nothing at all to suggest he won't get 3m. And anyway, FFS, we live but once ? Did these people make their fortunes by being terrified of the slightest risk or set back?
 
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clivex said:
If I was minted enough to own this horse ( and in fairness i jnow little about the owners wealth) I would like to think that I would want the horse to exploit his potential. People obsess about too much. If that was all they were in ownership for, then they are in the wrong game

I'm with fu here. There is nothing at all to suggest he won't get 3m. And anyway, FFS, we live but once ? Did these people make their fortunes by being terrified of the slightest risk or set back?
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And what is the "risk" anyway? He wouldn't stay the distance but he would be given such a hard race that he would never recover properly? He doesn't strike me as the type, and I'm sure BG wouldn't give him a hard race to grab a hard-earned-non-staying second.
 
I think he could win a King George and will stay further but the Gold cup not for the moment,
his engine is superb, especially after not jumping so well it is impressive he is able to put 190s performances,

with Simonsig for the Ryan air and Bobs Worth in the Gold Cup I dont think they will go longer distances next season.
 
Flagship uberalles said:
What evidence was there that Kauto stayed before they tried it? Bugger all.

The only time Sprinter Sacre was stepped up in trip he was indeed beaten (2m 4f hurdles at Ascot) - but he was also beaten in the Supreme over 2 miles, which he clearly has no problem getting over fences at the same course. It's impossible to conclusively state that a lack of stamina was why he was beaten at Ascot.

I don't think the correct approach with the horse is to wrap him in cotton wool at this point in his career - as he gets older, he will lose the speed which makes him so supreme at 2 miles. At least try him over a longer trip in the near future so it's obvious what path to take with him once that stage arrives.
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FU Kauto had won easily over 2m 4f in the mud in France and run away with a 2m 3f race at Newbury . Both suggestive that he would get further .

Jockeys and trainers of the standing of Walsh/Nicholls and Geraghty/Henderson - tend to have a pretty good idea whether their horses are likely to stay .
 
sunybay said:
I think he could win a King George and will stay further but the Gold cup not for the moment,
his engine is superb, especially after not jumping so well it is impressive he is able to put 190s performances,

with Simonsig for the Ryan air and Bobs Worth in the Gold Cup I dont think they will go longer distances next season.
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I never understand this attitude - just because the trainer has other horses who are fancied for those races, why should this discourage the owner from running the horse where he wants? The trainer is there to do an equal job for all his owners, not place "his" horses to give himself the most wins and win the trainer's championships.

Fair enough, keep him to 2 miles this year. If he were mine, he'd be turning up at the Old Roan chase next year and put the matter to the test. If he does perform in that, why can't he then take in the Tingle Creek and a tilt at the King George before a Cheltenham prep (for whatever target)? Desert Orchid and Kauto both managed to do that with great ease.

IMO, it would be a shame (almost a disgrace) to see him restricted to 2 miles - Sizing Europe is on the way out and everything else will avoid him by stepping up in trip, so he will most likely end up beating nothing but trees.
 
Ardross said:
FU Kauto had won easily over 2m 4f in the mud in France and run away with a 2m 3f race at Newbury . Both suggestive that he would get further .

Jockeys and trainers of the standing of Walsh/Nicholls and Geraghty/Henderson - tend to have a pretty good idea whether their horses are likely to stay .
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In France, he had also lost his previous 4 races in excess of 2 miles by a total of 60 lengths...
 
Flagship uberalles said:
I never understand this attitude - just because the trainer has other horses who are fancied for those races, why should this discourage the owner from running the horse where he wants? The trainer is there to do an equal job for all his owners, not place "his" horses to give himself the most wins and win the trainer's championships.

Fair enough, keep him to 2 miles this year. If he were mine, he'd be turning up at the Old Roan chase next year and put the matter to the test. If he does perform in that, why can't he then take in the Tingle Creek and a tilt at the King George before a Cheltenham prep (for whatever target)? Desert Orchid and Kauto both managed to do that with great ease.

IMO, it would be a shame (almost a disgrace) to see him restricted to 2 miles - Sizing Europe is on the way out and everything else will avoid him by stepping up in trip, so he will most likely end up beating nothing but trees.
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Putting aside the fact owners who start telling trainers where the horse should run are a pain in the backside, there is a lot of loyalty between trainers and owners who trust him to make all the decisions.

Nicky has won 8 chases on the trot with Sprinter Sacre the last 5 being Grade 1's so he's not exactly done anything that would inspire a level headed owner to interfere.
 
Flagship uberalles said:
What evidence was there that Kauto stayed before they tried it? Bugger all.

The only time Sprinter Sacre was stepped up in trip he was indeed beaten (2m 4f hurdles at Ascot) - but he was also beaten in the Supreme over 2 miles, which he clearly has no problem getting over fences at the same course. It's impossible to conclusively state that a lack of stamina was why he was beaten at Ascot.
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What evidence is there that Sprinter Sacre stayed the trip in the Supreme? Bugger all!
 
Len Madeiros said:
That was pre his breathing op, though.
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Breathing op is the key, I feel. I'm told he's had 3 such operations, and it's felt (in some quarters at least) that he'll succumb to his wind at some point. That's pretty much the only reason not to aim him at a Gold Cup. Owning horses is a losing business (unless you're Noel Hayes and co), and if the only reason SS isn't being campaigned to prove his greatness beyond doubt is because "we have another one for the Gold Cup" then all connected to him deserve to be dragged through Lambourn attached to a tractor by their genitals. Twice, if that's possible. :whistle:
 
Why should they have to step him up ? Why not keep him to the distance that suits him best .

Badsworth Boy stayed at 2 miles as did Pearlyman and it killed Dunkirk trying to win a King George going at 2 mile pace.
 
rorydelargy said:
Breathing op is the key, I feel. I'm told he's had 3 such operations, and it's felt (in some quarters at least) that he'll succumb to his wind at some point. That's pretty much the only reason not to aim him at a Gold Cup. Owning horses is a losing business (unless you're Noel Hayes and co), and if the only reason SS isn't being campaigned to prove his greatness beyond doubt is because "we have another one for the Gold Cup" then all connected to him deserve to be dragged through Lambourn attached to a tractor by their genitals. Twice, if that's possible. :whistle:
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Why do you need to step a horse up to 3 miles to " prove his greatness beyond doubt" ?

Nobody ever suggests the same about a hurdler .
 
Ardross said:
Why should they have to step him up ? Why not keep him to the distance that suits him best .

Badsworth Boy stayed at 2 miles as did Pearlyman and it killed Dunkirk trying to win a King George going at 2 mile pace.
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I know, it is a bit like the Frankel argument and why he should have run at a mile and a half. Or Big Bucks not running at 3 miles over hurdles. But...aside from the economic arguments, there should be no reason why SS shouldn't be stepped up in trip.
 
Ardross said:
Why do you need to step a horse up to 3 miles to " prove his greatness beyond doubt" ?

Nobody ever suggests the same about a hurdler .
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There's no real doubt that Sprinter Sacre would prove at least as good at 2m4f, is there? I certainly don't doubt that he would achieve bigger performances at that trip and beyond, if only because of the quality of horses he'd be thrashing. He's chased away everything at 2m, and the Arkle was a pretty dreadful affair this year, so the 2013/14 season threatens to be a total bore-fest. He could easily stroll around at the minimum trip (carefully avoiding any handicaps, of course) and rack up a sequence at prohibitive odds, or he could be asked to move ever so slightly out of his comfort zone and enhance his reputation.

I agree there's no "need" for it, but then there's no need to ever race him again if you want to take that view. I can understand the need for Frankel to remain unbeaten to a degree, but it would only be to the credit of all concerned to make the most of Sprinter Sacre, and to the detriment of racing as a whole if he morphed into the Harlem Globetrotters, performing exhibitions only. Again, I'll go on record to say that I believe an inherent weakness in the horse's wind is what's stopping them going for the King George etc, and it's understandable if so, but if not then it's a travesty that he's being held back from achieving his destiny.
 
reet hard said:
What evidence is there that Sprinter Sacre stayed the trip in the Supreme? Bugger all!
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He has returned 3 times since to run at Cheltenham (albeit chasing - I can't be bothered to look to see if they were run on old / new course).

Given that he has won these 3 races by a total of 40 lengths and two of them were championship events, I would find it very hard to believe he was beaten that day simply by a lack of stamina.
 
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