Sprinter Sacre: should he run at further distances?

clivex said:
That's economically illiterate. It's like saying that a business only exists because of shareholders and customers and staff are irrelevant. Absolute rubbish

Would the owners be in the game without the prize money, attention, crowds, atmosphere ,tv coverage and glory if none of these aspects existed? And where do these originate from?

It's rather like setting up a business with a product that no one wants and no knows exists. Who would buy into that in their right mind?

Of course there's money without owners. Wtf is the levy then? What are admission charges?

To give ne micro example, if owners lose lots of money overpaying for dud horses that because the competition between owners has determined that price not hat they are being philanthropic or charitable

My bet is that most owners lose most at the point of purchase and frankly that's down to their own market and little else. Top class horses would still be bred if the market collapsed (although obviously there is a level ). And it would take some collapse to justify turning gallieo into a tesco burger
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Tripe Clive........how many owners make a profit out of racing?Be lucky if it's 10%. The first thing you are told by any trainer only put into the game what you are willing to lose. because the chances of making money are remote.

Go find out how many races are run in a season and how many horses are in training........look at any trainers statistics and see how many horses they have that haven't won a race.

Example: up and coming trainer Brian Elison had over 100 horses in training last season NH and Flat more than half never won a race and only one owner may have made a very small profit everyone else lost money and that is not taking into consideration what he spent buying the horse. Some are lucky and sell for a big profit but not many.

And mate there's no way people will pay to watch horses racing if there are no horses.....no owners no horses no racing simple as
 
Getting back to the Melling Chase. Peter Casey saying he'll make them all go is good news if he's as good as his word.

I hope Flemenstar sets a really strong pace and Cue Card is up there as well...it will test Sprinter Sacre to the full and expose any stamina limitations he has or it will simply prove he is as good if not better over a longer trip.

He's passed every test with flying colours so far. This is unknown territory for him but I expect and hope he keeps the dream going
 
EC - I'm not sure communist racing is the solution! Doesn't seem to be thriving in Cuba. I suppose North Korea could have amazing racing which we don't know about.

Owners and breeders are the lifeblood of the sport. Almost all of them lose money. Without them there is nobody to pay the training fees so nobody to train the horses, nobody to ride them and nothing to bet on. Punters complete the circle, giving some (though not enough) money back to the owners via the levy. Betting is important to racing, but it wouldn't exist without owners.
 
Tanlic. You are missing the point entirely. Where did i say that owners didnt lose money? Thats their choice anyway. They are clearly getting some non monetary compensation arent they?

Address the point that owners are the only source of finance.

That is complete rubbish of course
 
EC has a good point though

You have to test the argument

So if all owners dropped out of the game tomorrow would racing continue? Absolutely. The horses would have no market value and the BHB could simply take full ownership and trainers would compete against each other (with some benefits i would suggest). Punters would demand that the sport continues and most couldnt give a monkeys about which fat northern businessman and his ugly wife owns which sprinter or which cotswold inbred owns which jumper

Now if all punters stopped betting and watching the sport immediately, then what would happen? Whos going to maintain an empty Ascot? Wheres the prize money going to come from? etc etc
 
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The problem with racing is that there isn't enough money in it. Why is it thriving in Dubai where I don't think there's any betting and therefore no levy? Is it just oil money?

I remain convinced bookmakers are our main problem. They take far too much out and for all their millions-per-year in sponsorship, it's a spit in the Pacific compared with what they take out.

We could have the quality of UK racing with prize money to match the best anywhere in the world with the right financing.
 
The notion that racing would continue if all owners dropped out of the game is laughable. The BHA might be able to acquire the horses for next to nothing, but where would they get the money to pay the training fees of £15k per horse per year. This adds up to well over £200m a year - last time I looked they don't have that kind of money. The levy is around £60m isn't it?

Racing however does continue with no betting (Dubai) and no prize money (point to point).
 
Yesz i do0 work in finance. Do you? Guess not. I can do sums and work out what the figures mean. Working in finance means that you have to think them through. Try it sometime

So you need 13000 plus horses (your figure) in training for racing to continue? I dont think so.

And would breeding stop altgether if the value was nominal and no market as such? Doubt it. What else would the stallions be used for?

Its just theory of course and no one would want to see it happen but taken to its conclusion, owners are the least important element in the chain

And i must admit i find the near hero worship of these people on here a bit peculiar
 
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So you think people will keep broodmares and send them to stallions even if there is no market for the resulting foals? Where would be the incentive for them to do that.

Oh and by the way there's no need to be patronising. Dickhead.
 
What esle would they do with them? Or why not simply be owned by the BHB? Just at cost?

You think that there would be no method of supply of horses ? Thats the least of anyones worries

Im no advocating it but you will have to do better than that

And finance isnt emptying the tills at Tescos
 
I assume whatever organisation has the misfortune to employ you had to seek a bailout some time ago, if your grasp of numbers is as flimsy as your grasp on reality.

Anyway these tills won't empty themselves so this 'debate' will have to wait for a bit now I'm afraid Clive.
 
The reality is it wont happen but its a case of putting it into [perspective and knocking back blinkered statements claiming that the owners were the beall and end all, which is bollocks


Challenge the numbers if you wish but im still waiting


As it happens Im self employed and unless i get it right, i do not get commissions or work. simple as that.
 
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Why is it thriving in Dubai where I don't think there's any betting and therefore no levy? Is it just oil money?
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its goverment money allright that does originate from Oil but its part of a package (with other sports and developments) to promote and develop Dubai as a tourest resort and loosen their dependence on oil.

a package that is actually working if you look at the figures, only the States has a higher no of visitors and they have developed their tourist industry in a quarter of the time it took Spain and Portugal to develop theirs. Most importantly is their ration of the A/B classes amongst the incoming visitors is the highest in the world meaning the average spend per tourest is far higher than what the States or Europe manages
 
prince regent said:
a package that is actually working if you look at the figures, only the States has a higher no of visitors and they have developed their tourist industry in a quarter of the time it took Spain and Portugal to develop theirs. Most importantly is their ration of the A/B classes amongst the incoming visitors is the highest in the world meaning the average spend per tourest is far higher than what the States or Europe manages
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Yes, we're going off at a tangent but there would have to be something wrong if they didn't develop their tourism so quickly. It's the same with every development. If you look at previous examples elsewhere, you identify the most effective elements and concentrate on them. The A/B classes go there because only they can afford it. They are generally moneyed people who don't mind paying extra for exclusivity.
 
not trying to continue going of tangent but the model they have built of racing without betting has given them a big advantage in selling their expertise to China where the communist goverment also wants racing without betting.
meanwhile some years after the horse left the stable the BHA has decided to send a task force to China they will find all the worthwhile contracts done and dusted by the time they get there
 
not sure that dubai is the second most visited country in the world. No where near in truth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings

not that it matters i suppose.

They have made a good fist of diversifying away from oil although theres many aspects to the country (treatment of workers and usual muslim laws) which remain unappealing.

Horse racing without betting hmmm...
 
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according to sunday times and an eye for transport articles

but they have managed to make good racing without betting though im not sure its a model that could be kept going.

it appeals to the communists in china one can only imagine the amount of illegal gambling that will take place though. and the anount iof interest generated if betting was legalised there.

agree about the unpleasent side though
 
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