Sussex Stakes

NHughes said:
Kingman had weight for age in the Sussex and rightfully so but Toronado by High Chaparral was hardly going to be suited by the way the race was run
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not sure about that...they are both milers..neither want 10f..Toronado tried it..fell out of back of telly. So to suggest he is some sort of stamina horse at this stage just because he is by High Chaparral doesn't mean a lot now we seen racecourse performance. Damsire of Toronado is Grand Slam who imparts speed rather than stamina. Kingman Damsire also gets milers but also 14f+ horses..his highest % of winners to runners is at 14f. So its a balancing act..but on the track both are milers.

its back to the argument again about pace...what if Mill Reef- Brigadier Gerard, Nijinsky...also won most of their races in slow run affairs?..Nijinsky's Derby was run slowly..i do know that one. I never heard anyone question his ability because of it...STS's Derby wasn't a true test either..maybe we should discount it from his record as not a fully deserved win if we are going to rub out races on turf that aren't true tests. In fact..we might as well take 60% of G1 win plaudits from all those receiving them as they aren't true tests pace wise. Is Kingman being judged differently to every horse from the past 50 years in an unfair way do you not think?

The fact is..many many G1 races are not true tests..but you still have to win them

Do you think Kingman wasn't that superior to Toronado?..i'm surprised at that as he was at a disadvantage pace wise..by being behind Toronado with a furlong and a half to go..with Toronado having a completely full tank
 
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Frankel said:
Indeed it is not easy to pick up the one's in front off a slow pace. But we all knew Kingman would as he has serious boot. Wouldn't be so easy to use that speed in a fast run race.
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having serious boot is what divides good from great though..you seem to say it as if its some unfair edge he has ..its just his superiority really

No its not so easy using it in a more truly run race..but Frankel still looked good in both types of races..i don't think its easy producing it with just 1.5 furlongs to go either against the best miler around on a downhill track.

i still think pulling form down through pace..which has never been used as a reason in the past to judge horses by seems odd to me.

One thing against this "all speed" argument for me is the fact that if he was just speed then slow ground would have blunted it..but he quickens up on fast and slow the same...thats a sign of something special..and not just some speed advantage.
 
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It's not about pulling the form down EC. It's about how they have gone about trying to beat Kingman. Impressive he has been no question.
Whether he was unkucky in the guineas or not. The only question I am stating is that no one has decided to make it a test against him since. This knowing he has the best turn of foot.
I was very impressed by Goodwood, especially as it took him a little while to gather himself together before that burst.
 
I agree with what Frankel is saying.
Kingman is the best miler this season no doubt, but what has happened since the Guineas is play everything to his strengths. Toronado is a top miler EC that's why he's not running over 10f but against Kingman would have more chance off a true run race. Look at the times of this years Sussex and last years. This years race just aswell had been a 7f race and is Toronado a top class 7f horse?
 
NHughes said:
I agree with what Frankel is saying.
Kingman is the best miler this season no doubt, but what has happened since the Guineas is play everything to his strengths. Toronado is a top miler EC that's why he's not running over 10f but against Kingman would have more chance off a true run race. Look at the times of this years Sussex and last years. This years race just aswell had been a 7f race and is Toronado a top class 7f horse?
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fair point,,,sussex was probably a 2 furlong race:)

lets not compare the sussex to the other races though..that was a freakish race

the question has to be why the hannon team believe that is how to beat him...just bizarre..or maybe they think that having the lengths in hand and enough left to kick with is the only way to beat him...which it would be..if any horse was as good or slightly inferior to Kingman...as it is he can give anything around a start and beating...and thats in every race not just sussex

the st wifred handicap is the only hope punters have of knocking him..even kris lost that..and Toronado did..yet Toronado proved later he had an off day by beating the 200Og winner
 
Come on EC, the guineas is one of the most important races of the season. You weren't calling it the St Wilfred after Frankels guineas! More like the gold cup they were strung out so far!
 
Aragorn said:
Come on EC, the guineas is one of the most important races of the season. You weren't calling it the St Wilfred after Frankels guineas! More like the gold cup they were strung out so far!
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depends what you mean by important, the years when its run in one group its a decent race yes, when it splits to an extreme it spoils it imo. The year Hawk Wing got beat would have been a far more informative race had there been less runners and racing in one group. To me that was a great race spoiled by the split.

Frankel's 2000 was unlike any other classic we will ever see, superb.

I also think think races like the Champion stakes are better now they are run at Ascot, it actually looks like a proper race. I remember the year Haafhd won the Champion...small field spread all over the course, just awful.

I think before the guineas its an important race to look forward to but when the season moves on a true pecking order becomes clearer..a horse that wins the guineas isn't automatically the best 3yo miler..but i feel that a lot of punters look back at it as some kind of gold reference set in stone.

I've enjoyed many guineas..but the ones i have enjoyed most were one group races..El Gran Senor..Dancing Brave..type of guineas.

If they had raced in one group this year i still don't thing Kingman would have won..so not saying it because of that..but to me its unsatisfactory when it looks like a large splitting field sprint.
 
The QEII looks terribly open without Kingman - brilliant as Moore generally is I think Night of Thunder was the best horse in the race today and was given too much to do . Toronado was disappointing - he does not seem to have the turn of foot he had last year or maybe once again an example of how much better this years's three year olds are .
 
Hopefully Kingman makes it.

I just think the 3yr olds are better this year.

Personally think the winner did just enough. Hopefully we get them all turning up on Champions day.
 
Head says Charm Spirit probably heads to Ascot after his win in the Moulin, looks an improved horse since he ran in the Guineas but will struggle to deal with an on song Kingman.
 
Toronado needs a decent pace to run at; didn't get it today or in the Sussex, though won the Queen Anne well enough when he did.
 
reet hard said:
Toronado needs a decent pace to run at; didn't get it today or in the Sussex, though won the Queen Anne well enough when he did.
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Hughsie (RP today) cited the 2014 Queen Anne as "the most gruelling mile race I've ever ridden in".
The last 2f were run in 25.2 secs, the last 2 of Sunday's Moulin in 22.13 secs.
Draw your own conclusions.
 
NHughes said:
Exactly and another reason to step the horse up in trip either that or send in a pacemaker for the mile race.
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I suspect Hannon will be throwing the kitchen sink at the QEII now Kingman has retired and if they do go a proper gallop and the ground is good Toronado could well reverse the form with Charm Spirit .

Question will be will Australia run now ?
 
Ardross said:
I suspect Hannon will be throwing the kitchen sink at the QEII now Kingman has retired and if they do go a proper gallop and the ground is good Toronado could well reverse the form with Charm Spirit .

Question will be will Australia run now ?
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On the straight course NOT will beat the pair of them imo
 
Wouldn't be the first time he's picked the wrong one this season.
Moore will do just fine.
 
Hughes will ride Toronado,
it doesnt mind if he thinks Night Of thunder is a better chance

Toronado owned by a more powerfull owner and they have keep him on the horse rather than Dettori on him and he will have to stay loyal to Toronado


by the way I think NOT has better chance in the queii
 
edgt said:
Why oh why not let K Fallon back on the horse ?
Like Scobie Breasley on Santa Claus he wins a classic only to be jocked off and the horse has not won since.
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To be fair after the Guineas it was always likely that he would have to wait until the QE11 to show his best.
 
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