Tamarinbleu

I agree about the ground SL, esp as both you and UG were there so gave us first hand reports, but I was being conservative in my description as there are still some on here who refuse to believe it was genuinely heavy on Sat :rolleyes:

What I really meant was, that there was a section of ground which was virtually unraceable LOL - but my main point concerned *variations* in going.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Jan 23 2008, 09:52 PM
I prostrate myself before the feet of the world's greatest living comedian....

(with apologies to Edmund J Blackadder, for those of you who don't get it)
I don't get it :shy:
 
There's no getting away from what was an eyecatching performance from Tamarinbleu on Saturday. But surely all it does is muddy the waters some more. Twist Magic stuffs Voy Por and Tamarinbleu stuffs Twist Magic. If you wanted to rate those races literally you'd have Tamarinbleu some two stones better than Voy Por which clearly isn't the case.

I'm also concerned about the times at Ascot. They just don't sit right. Pitman was there with his stick trying to show us how the ground was only soft for a couple of inches, but then he moves on with Williamson and inadvertently pushes his stick in a good 8-10 inches in another bit of ground a few moments later! It seems to me the ground was all over the place, and in any case to run a time within 8 seconds of standard with the deluge we'd had all week and with Ascot having to pass a morning inspection just can't be right. Running rails may have been moved because of the ground is the first thing that springs to mind. But I'm certainly not comfortable taking Saturday's times at face value.

Going back to the three of them however. We are talking about a championship race at Cheltenham on likely ground much quicker than any of the trials have been run on. And given the expected conditions and the way the race will be run surely Voy Por is the solid bet irrespective of what ratings say.
 
I think Tamarinbleu is proven on decent ground too.

I know I'm in danger of joining Warbler in jumping overboard with this one but I can see Tamarinbleu jumping them silly in the QM.

To add a caveat, though, he might have peaked too soon. His campaign doesn't exactly smack of that of a horse that's been trained with one race in mind.
 
As you suggest Maruco, I think that it would be unwise to base too many theorys around standard times over jumps at Ascot when they themselves are based on such a small sample.

There have been only about 12-13 days racing there since the track was re-modelled and the distances / number of fences jumped changed from old. The Victor Chandler Chase is now run over two miles and a furlong rather than two miles. There can only have been around 10-14 chases of that trip in that period on which to base a standard time, of which this particular one would be by far the highest class, as last years corresponding race was abandoned.

Conclusions ? I dont know, but I think it would be unwise to use 'standard' times there just yet.
 
I am no ratings expert, but using the ORs of Hoo La Baloo and Twist Magic these stable companions ran right up to form.

Desert Orchid makes the same point I posted on TRF earlier in the week, namely if you take Taraminbleu out of the equation, the scribes would be heralding Twist Magic as the QM winner already.

A lot has been written about the state of the ground, however Twist Magic jumped brilliantly and travelled strongly to the final bend of the race.

He simply emptied and was beaten by a horse who stayed better. Considering Twist Magic's finishing position it would be foolhardy to say he didn;t stay - he stayed better than Mansony who you would have though more suited by the prevailing ground conditinos than Twist Magic.

The blinkers have brought about immense improvement in Tamarinbleu this season, but being a small unscopey type, I suspect he would not be happy in a contested lead which he is likely to get at Cheltenham.

Personally I think Voy Por Ustedes is looking like a banker. His impeccable festival record (defeating Monet's Garden no less in his Arkle), coupled with the fact I forgive him his Sandown defeat as it came too soon after a serously attritional seasonal debut, make him the horse they still all have to beat. There are no concerns about his resolve for a fight up the Cheltenham hill (unlike Twist Magic), and if kept fresh (and avoiding a hard race in the Game Spirit which I presume he will contest) the QM is there for the taking.
 
Originally posted by Headstrong@Jan 23 2008, 11:13 PM
I agree about the ground SL, esp as both you and UG were there so gave us first hand reports, but I was being conservative in my description as there are still some on here who refuse to believe it was genuinely heavy on Sat :rolleyes:

What I really meant was, that there was a section of ground which was virtually unraceable LOL - but my main point concerned *variations* in going.
I agree with you - although it still surprises/amazes me even, that people seem to need it pointing out to them that the ground at a racecourse is not going to be totally uniform throughout! It's not astroturf!!

Also for the life of me I can't work out why people are trying to persuade the rest of us the ground wasn't bad on Saturday - somewhere I read a theory that it was more like good to soft according to the times!!!!!!! :eek: :suspect:
 
Look at the profile of the other winners on the day. Lough Derg, Wee Robbie, Labelthou... Horses that were either dropping back in trip or are confirmed out-and-out stayers.

Argue over your going descriptions all you like. It was very testing out there.
 
I've now managed to do some provisional figures for the meeting but before I go into them, a word about times.

It's not just the going that impacts upon the times. I've watched races where they were struggling to get home, with mud flying everywhere, yet the times weren't at all bad. I'm not sure the extent to which other factors impact but I can't accept it's all down to the ground. I prefer to refer to 'conditions' as slow or fast, where the term 'conditions' encompasses all factors.

The times at Ascot suggest conditions were the equivalent of soft rather than heavy.

However, Ascot has changed and I suspect over the coming years we'll see fair chunks being lopped off standard and median times, in much the same way as they're developing on the Flat track. Nevertheless, the shape and contours of the course are very similar to what they were before and the impact of the changes should have broadly similar effects across the the distances of races. I have no option for the time being but to use the times I've always used and from there work out the relative differentials in performances.

We know Tamarinbleu went off fast. Ashley Brook couldn't get to the front after just missing the kick. We know Marodima and Mahogany Blaze appeared to go off like scalded cats yet Warbler tells us Tamarinbleu was faster. It is more difficult to judge the pace in the last chase, won by Regal Heights but Nadover raced prominently and wasn't far behind the runner up, while the leader Model Son was still well there when coming down at the tenth.

My gut instinct is to calculate the going allowances using the Lightning as a guide. We know the leaders went too fast and MB was treading water in the straight. Wee Robbie was ridden as though they were happy to pick up some place money en route to another day and Orpen Wide had no right on form to get within three lengths of Mahogany Blaze. Orpen Wide and Monzon appear to have run very close to previous marks with MB ultimately well below his best RPR.

I've rated the race via OW. It puts Wee Robbie on 130, well below his Jewson form. However, it puts Tamarinbleu on 181, very close to the figure I roughed out earlier this week. It also puts the impressive Regal Heights, on a very smart figure (161) with Patricksnineteenth and Nadover close to their marks. I have RH on 161 on form (value for 20 lengths) but times don't take easing into account so I've ended up reducing all the time ratings for the chases by 5lbs.

The nett result is that Tamarinbleu's time rating comes down to 176 and Wee Robbie's to 125. I happen to think Tamarinbleu wasn't all out so he'll get a '+' for the time being and there has to be the chance he's still improving.

176+ is exactly the figure I gave Twist Magic for Sandown and my best rating for VPU is 173. Given the nature of the test at Cheltenham, I'd still prefer Tamarinbleu to the others in the QM.
 
DO, you surely cannot really use the figures you have always used as the minimum-distance chases at Ascot are now two miles and a furlong rather than two miles. Because of the changes they now start before the bend into the straight and jump an extra fence, rather than the entrance to the straight. Any standard-time based ratings using times set over two miles prior to the rebuild, and even over the new trip since the rebuild given the small sample size, are surely bound to be extremely dubious.
 
My time for the 2m1f race is the old 2m time x 17/16, with other simple arithmetical adjustments for the other distances compare to the old ones. It won't be precise but it's better than nothing.

Jumping an extra fence would, if anything, result in a slower relative time, as would strating just before a bend (as they have to slow up a fraction to negotiate the bend).
 
Surely the whole point of time or conditions based analysis is to be as precise as possible in order to provide a more scientific judgement on an event as opposed to those who merely use their eyes, gut instinct or expererience, and to provide a figure that is free of poor judgement, prejudice and other such questionable variables.

I would therefore say that your method for calculating figures for Saturday is not better than nothing, and a verdict of 'I have no time or conditions based figures for The Victor Chandler Chase as there is not enough evidence on which to base a satisfactorily accurate assessment of the effects of the new track on old times over differing distances' would be of far greater merit !! :P

Out of interest do you ever amend your figures at a later date when new evidence comes to light ? For example, after a couple more seasons when the new track has been in action for longer and provides a greater sample of times from which to draw a standard will you then go back over the early calculations that you made using what will presumably be a more accurate starting point for assessment ? Are standard times usually based on five years worth of times?

Another question. What happens when you are faced with a standard time at a course where there is only one really high class race held over a certain distance in a season with all the other races over that trip, though there may be plenty, of a moderate nature ? It is possible that the good horse will muller the standard time without actually performing all that well due to the standard time being set by moderate horses. How do you account for these instances even if using a median means that the standard times themselves are not distorted by the occasional high class performer at a lowly track ?

Many questions! :dork:
 
Regarding the last point, the times from which standards are calculated should be adjusted for class prior to any average/median being taken.
 
Some dangerous questions there Goober and I fear it might involve a lengthy response by way of explanation :rolleyes: However, I'll try and keep it short but can obviously only speak for myself.

The first one regarding the revision of ratings is quite easy. You just deny the original existed and hope to hell no one remembers. :P If they do, you blame someone else or an arithmetic error.

If I've read the question correctly, the issue of the one of the good horse smashing a standard on a card of moderate ones isn't too hard. As you say you can use medians which is what I believe Dave Bellingham does. I'm not totally convinced that these aren't prone to even greater osciliations myself, especially in jumps races where you get a number of eased down performances which are more likely to be found in the midfield finishers, or small fields.

Personally I use a class par method where by each race is allocated some time back depending on its class. It's designed to level the playing field and isn't too far removed from a golf handicap in principal. The class par equates to a number of seconds against a standard unit measurement (I work at a mile) that a horse is given back to its time to standard. This is adjusted and used to set going correction (or track variance in American) which all speed ratings are derived from. The class pars are as I understand it, is based on averages of thousands of winning performances put up in different classes of race. Again, as I understand it, the par time isn't necessarily that important, so long as the ratios between the class divisions are the same, as you'll still generate the same rank order.

It is this class par assignation that has principally been responsible for my observation of so called grade 1 staying hurdlers being questionable, as they never hit the grade 1 par, yet their 2 mile contemporaires do. The par itself is indexed to 100, with a score in excess representing the better performance.

It is therefore quite possible that the relatively best performance on a card might be put up in handicap, rather than the grade 1, as the par makes a concession to the class of race thus by way of compensation. Once variance is established though, you can assess any horse off any class par, provided you treat all the horses under investigation to the same treatment and have a level of consistancy thus. Such an analysis for instance allows you to assess a novice off an open grade 1 par.

It's not fool proof of course, but it tends to help you spot a stand out performance early, especially in the event of 2yo's, novices and juveniles, and especially if introduced on a minor track where they will be given a lowly class par which they will normally shatter. The table I use (or should that be nicked) differentiates between minor and major tracks in view of the likely calibre of animal that such tracks attract, and every now and then you will encounter the emergence of a top class animal on a minor track. Their contribution to variance can have the effect of raising the bar however, so it is often better to use the second horse home to set variance in this event. Indeed, Twist Magic was first spotted at Fakenham thus, and backed at 40 odd to one for the Arkle.

As regards setting standards, I don't do my own, and am lazy enough to use the RP's. The standard can as I understand it be affected by a series of standout performances, and this is more likely to occur in a disruptive fashion on a minor track. There are certainly a few standards that I'm far from certain are correct, but so long as each horse is subjected to the same yardstick, the same rank order should emerge.

It's probably more helpful to let someone who does calculate their own standards explain it though as I'm sure they can do a better job than I
 
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