The Champion Chase 2010

Big Zeb has the raw ability to give Master Minded plenty of trouble. It's just very difficult to back him with confidence at somewhere like Cheltenham where his jumping will come under so much scrutiny.
 
I don't think he'll go for the Tingle Creek and the Durkan only if the ground is good. He's in better form this year than last and is really only a horse now.
 
Going for the Tingle Creek would be very agressive. Plenty of pots to won in Ireland with him.
 
Agree with that, Gearoid - the Irish pattern caters nicely for classy 2m chasers.

Much as I liked Big Zeb's performance at the weekend though, I'd still be inclined to side with Barker if the pair ever met going right-handed.
 
Yes, but the Tingle Creek is to the Champion Chase what the King George is to the Gold Cup in terms of prestige. If Moscow Flyer had stayed at home and mopped up easy pickings, where would that have left his reputation (still very high, admittedly) and where would it have left racing, as that Tingle Creek is the best race I've ever seen.

The Tingle Creek is probably my favourite NH race, and it would be great for Big Zeb to come over, and hopefully there'll be a competitive Well Chief as well.
 
Gearoid said:
Going for the Tingle Creek would be very agressive. Plenty of pots to won in Ireland with him.
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Has to be good for his long-term future to get him in races where they go a good gallop so he can get used to jumping at such a tempo. Far easier to fall into bad habits when all you have to do is potter round and then pass a corpsed Watson Lake 2 out.
 
He won't really want to travel him twice either. Takes a little out of them and he's a buzzy horse anyway. If anyone saw him in the morning in Cheltenham, he'd be jig jogging around with some sweat down his shoulder. Saw him gallop with Kimberlite King recently and same thing, got off the box in a lather of sweat. Nervous energy which isn't suited to travelling.
 
Agreed he does not need to go to the UK just yet - surely better off gaining some confidence at home first before taking on the Railway Fences. Barker will provide as much competition at home as most of the UK chasers bar Master Minded obviously.
 
Personally, I don't understand the point of having a potentially top class 2 miler if you don't want to travel for a few hours to run in a Tingle Creek.

It should also help the horse as per what DJ said, and also help him get used to travelling.

Imagine if Ballydoyle took this kind of attitude, and all the clashes we see in the UK didn't happen.
 
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Galileo said:
Agreed he does not need to go to the UK just yet - surely better off gaining some confidence at home first before taking on the Railway Fences. Barker will provide as much competition at home as most of the UK chasers bar Master Minded obviously.
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I disagree. He's hardly just out of his novice season, and the pace of Irish races will do him no good in terms of preparation for Cheltenham. Only once race will likely see whether he can jump at pace, and that's in Sandown in 3 or so weeks.
 
Hamm said:
Personally, I don't understand the point of having a potentially top class 2 miler if you don't want to travel for a few hours to run in a Tingle Creek.

It should also help the horse as per what DJ said.

Imagine if Ballydoyle took this kind of attitude, and all the clashes we see in the UK didn't happen.
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It's an extreme example. We are talking about a horse that has had numerous jumping problems in the past, and clearly needs his confidence restored. As Cantoris said (and I remember Murphy saying it before in the past) that the horse lives a bit on his nerves so two trips over will not do him any good particularly when there are suitable opportunities closer to home. It is not as if he is ducking out of Cheltenham and his trainer has campaigned his top horses aggressively in the past (at home and abroad).
 
Remind me how many times Brave Inca went to England before Cheltenham each year? I'm not suggesting he should, as the better hurdlers were in Ireland then, but it's the same old 'why should be go abroad' point you have in NH.

For me, there is no going abroad, there are simply the best races, and that's where the best horses should go. The Tingle Creek is better than all the 2 mile races in Ireland by a comfortable distance, so it's therefore logical to expect Big ZEb to turn up.

On the subject of jumping, he showed no ill effects when nearly pipping Master minded at Punchestown, or on his comeback this season.

On the subject of living on his nerves, 3 hours travelling in Ireland v 6/7 hours to get to England is not a massive difference. If Ballydoyle immature 2 year olds do it all of the time without an issue, it should not become a huge issue for a mature horse. The more he travels, the more he will get used to it, and learn to take it in his stride. And regarding not wanting to travel him over twice - they are 3 months apart! Hardly like one trip will affect the other.
 
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Brave Inca travelled regularly to Cheltenham (obviously) and went to Aintree after his first Champion – Fethard Lady travelled to Sandown for the Christmas hurdle – but as you say neither of them needed to travel due to the prizemoney here and the fact they were taking on inferior horses in the UK.

Forpadytheplasterer is heading to Sandown – he is the at the right time in his career. For me Big Zeb is not and should not simply run in the race because it is the biggest and the best – each horse needs to be taken on its own merits. The horse has fallen in slowly run races in Ireland so I do not see how jumping at speed is the only test he needs right now. It was the same thing said about Beef Or Salmon – bring him over to the UK and to brush up his jumping – running at Haydock did not help him.

As for showing no ill effects at Punchestown – well he missed Aintree after Cheltenham in favour of a confidence booster over hurdles at Punchestown – by your blanket reckoning he should have still gone to Aintree as that is where the best of the best is. Colm Murphy did a tremendous job to get him back to form after that horrific fall at Cheltenham and if he is happy that the horse is not ready or better of prepping his horses at home well I think I will go with him.
 
'Blanket reckoning'

He has had 2 runs over fences since falling at Cheltenham (& a confidence booster over hurdles) which include his best performance over fences, and a good introduction to this season last time out. When exactly would you like him to take on a bigger test? 2 years time?

Big Zeb is much more experienced and much more likely to win the Tingle Creek than Forpadydeplasterer so I'm not sure what kind of point you are trying to make.

So, in other words, an opinion is dismissed if it disagrees with what the trainer says - that sounds like a very fast way to the poorhouse.

Also, where did I mention Aintree?? You're going off on a tangent and I'm not following you.
 
Galileo said:
Brave Inca travelled regularly to Cheltenham (obviously) and went to Aintree after his first Champion – Fethard Lady travelled to Sandown for the Christmas hurdle – but as you say neither of them needed to travel due to the prizemoney here and the fact they were taking on inferior horses in the UK.
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That doesn't exactly back up your point that Murphy aggressively campaigns his horses abroad. Yes, at the time there were inferior hurdlers in the UK, hence sending Irish horses over was illogical (apart from looking for ideal conditions in a (still prestigous) xmas hurdle a la Harchibald). But now, the better 2 miler chasers are in the UK, and the best 2 mile chase outside Cheltenham is in the UK, so not going when you have a horse perfectly fit and ready for it makes no sense, or rather makes a lot of sense in terms of it is another example of a problem inherent in NH.
 
I think my point is clear – the horse in my opinion (and presumably the trainers if he does not go for the Tingle) is better off missing the Tingle Creek this season with an eye to building his confidence early in the season for the major targets that lie ahead. Sandown is not just where the best horses will be, it is also one of the toughest tests of jumping there is. A knock back now for Big Zeb could well end up ruining his season.

Because I do not think this particular horse should run in the Tingle Creek does not mean I think it should be applied to every horse. That was my point about Aintree – because it is the best race and where the best horses are going to be your attitude appears to be that the horse has to run there without looking at each horse on its merits and individual profiles. And no he will not have to wait two years – just a few months until Cheltenham and Punchestown much like he did just a few months ago.

And again I did not say (as you suggest) that a trainers word is Gospel but it is a factor particularly when Murphy has done so well with the horse already.
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Colm is miticulous in his preparation for everything and he tries to reduce the risks as much as possible. It is folly to think that any of us know more about his horses than he does. With Brave Inca, he was never fit enough to be travelled before the Irish Champion. We toyed with the idea of going for the Boylesports bonus and we just couldn't justify given his physical condition (was only ever fully fit from January on given he was a lazy gross horse), the type of horse he was (he needed things done a certain way) and the fact that there were plenty of opportunities for him at home. Sending him to Cheltenham in December was something we didn't NEED to do.

Big Zeb is the same. If your target is Cheltenham and you have a buzzy horse like him, why would you bother going for something abroad which isn't your objective. Just to give the public some entertainment?? At the end of the day, the public will not give him anything if he falls or it takes too much out of him. There are simple things you can do to screw up a horse (and hindsight is always a wonderful thing), and Colm tries to avoid them at all costs. He might be over ruled by his owner who is the only person with any right to really question how he prepares the horse, but my gut tells me the Tingle Creek just isn't on the agenda when he has a Champion Chase in him. And he is a better horse come the spring anyway, as you can see from his race record when he has done well in the spring. His coat really blossoms then. while punters would like to see him in the Tingle Creek, it's only a distraction from the real game.....Cheltenham and Punchestown.
 
I'm not sure how BI'S campaign is relevant?

Cantoris said:
It is folly to think that any of us know more about his horses than he does.
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I presume then the RP section where trainers comment on their horses is the best way to decide which horse to bet on then?

If your target is Cheltenham and you have a buzzy horse like him, why would you bother going for something abroad which isn't your objective.
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Wasn't Sea the Stars similarly described?

only a distraction from the real game.....Cheltenham and Punchestown.
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:rolleyes::D

I can only presume you're joking. Punchestown is a very poor third to Cheltenham and Aintree, and the Tingle Creek is more prestigous than all the 2 mile chases in Ireland put together.
 
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