Hamm has no grasp on the importance of meetings like Punchestown and a little thing called the Irish Classics to trainers - particularly Irish based.
The Champion Chase 2010
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Hamm has no grasp on the importance of meetings like Punchestown and a little thing called the Irish Classics to trainers - particularly Irish based.
Are you seriously trying to suggest the 2m chase at the Punchestown festival is a better, more prestigous (or whatever) race than the Tingle Creek?
I can't believe you really think that.
NH is much too inward focussed, in terms of trainers backyards - Mullins, a seemingly sensible man, is one of few trainers to go to France for bigger pots. how is that explained?
Punchestown suffers from its place in the calendar, where a lot of horses are over the top and running is often an afterthought, only decided in the weeks beforehand. The amount of graded races is fantastic, but at the end of the day, its like a postscript to the season - it should seek a major change in its positioning in the calendar as from what i hear its great to go to, but imho its being a little wasted. Either swap it with Aintree or move it before Cheltenham.
I can't believe you really think that.
NH is much too inward focussed, in terms of trainers backyards - Mullins, a seemingly sensible man, is one of few trainers to go to France for bigger pots. how is that explained?
Punchestown suffers from its place in the calendar, where a lot of horses are over the top and running is often an afterthought, only decided in the weeks beforehand. The amount of graded races is fantastic, but at the end of the day, its like a postscript to the season - it should seek a major change in its positioning in the calendar as from what i hear its great to go to, but imho its being a little wasted. Either swap it with Aintree or move it before Cheltenham.
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Punchestown is not a poor third to Aintree - that was my point.
Your very description could be said of the Breeders Cup Meeting - lets scrap that too shall we? The Punchestown Festival is the end of the Irish jumps season - no it is not Cheltenham - it works fine for me and is hugely important as it is the pinnacle of the Irish jumps season. You might find Aintree more prestigous - but the vast majority of Irish based trainers would prefer a Punchestown winner than an Aintree one (outside of the National).
Your comment about Willie Mullins is interesting seeing as he has repeatidly said he does not like travelling to England before Cheltenham unless he really has to.
I hate to rain on your parade Hamm, but the Tingle Creek is not "all that" to the Irish trainers or racegoers. In fact, more Irish would know the date of the Paddy Power than the Tingle Creek. It's just another grade 1 that fits into the calendar for a horse.
And Punchestown is far more important to the Irish trainers than Aintree unless they have targeted a horse at the National. Most Irish trainers think of Cheltenham and Punchestown and Fairyhouse and Aintree fall in or out as required.
Whether you like it or not, that's how it's viewed.
And Punchestown is far more important to the Irish trainers than Aintree unless they have targeted a horse at the National. Most Irish trainers think of Cheltenham and Punchestown and Fairyhouse and Aintree fall in or out as required.
Whether you like it or not, that's how it's viewed.
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Why not. He's a horse that runs well at Punchestown in the Spring on good ground. It's a very big pot and fits into the programme well. The Tingle Creek is early in a long season where they go flat out on a stiff track on softish ground. Unless you are pretty straight for it, why would you go for it and risk giving your horse a hard race when you can bring him along nicely and prep for the big day. Each trainer to their own and it never stopped Moscow from going over but he was a more straight forward horse mentally.
I seriously doubt that - they will know the dates of the Open meeting, of which the Paddy Power is part of.
You're entitled to your opinion of course, but to me, you sound like an an Irish racing fan as opposed to a racing fan, if the above is what you think.
You're right. I'd hate to give my horse a hard race by winning the Tingle Creek. That would be awful.
Seriously, look at the horses who have run in it the last 5/6 years - it didn't seem to do them much harm afterwards, did it?
Also, he's had a prep race, so why wouldn't he be 'straight' for it?
that attitude is a fundamental problem in NH.
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Be careful with the use of "racing fan". I love horses and I love racing but what is good for racing might not always be good for horses. Someone who wants to see the big names clash all the time is out for the entertainment value....which I believe is what you really want. which is nearly the same as me although I'm willing to wait until all the horses are good and ready to take each other on at cheltenham. There is a natrual expectations gap, like most things in life, between what the punter (being the racegoer or the gambler) wants and what the trainers want for their horses. All need to be serviced appropriately so racegoers need to get enough to keep them happy and owners/trainers need enough races to allow them to prep horses for the big day.
I am not suggesting the Tingle Creek is not important - its a huge test for a 2 mile chaser. Like I said, just my opinion, that Big Zeb would be better off gaining confidence and ironing out any jumping problems he has right now rather than taking on a course like Sandown.
Different horse. You surely appreciate that different horses' campaigns are going to be different and there is not a right or wrong path to take, simply the one that suits the horse and the objectives set by the owner/trainer?
I appreciate your point but can tell you this time you're a little wide of the mark with how you are trying to pigeonhole me (as perhaps I could be with you) - I do want what's best for any horse, but mollycoddling them when they are straight, fit and ready to run in the second best race in his category of the year doesn't make sense to me. I accept what you say about jumping issues and nerves and you know what i think about both from the above. For me, this decision (if he is not to go) boils down to 2 big problems of NH, where people often don't look outside their own back door and focus on CHeltenham.
For me, it reflects quite poor on Murphy to not get at least 1 experience of jumping at speed into Big Zeb before bringing him to Cheltenham again - he's had a couple of runs since falling, a nice introduction which he won well and now needs to show he can step it up. He's a third season chaser for heaven's sake!!
For me, it reflects quite poor on Murphy to not get at least 1 experience of jumping at speed into Big Zeb before bringing him to Cheltenham again - he's had a couple of runs since falling, a nice introduction which he won well and now needs to show he can step it up. He's a third season chaser for heaven's sake!!
Big Zeb has fallen in two of his last four starts and in the third he made a horrendous error at Punchestown which could easily see him going into this event with 3 falls out his last 4 chase starts. Previous to these four most recent starts he had also failed to complete the course twice over fences. This thing of him being a third season chaser, or needing to take on the best is just far to general with a horse like this.
I see every reason to tread carefully with the horse. To me he looks just a bit thick at his fences sometime and any amount of schooling at speed will make no difference (much like Moscow Flyer who still made howlers with all his experience). It is all about getting confidence and almost trying to forget his previous falls. Moscow used to generally find a leg or have an easy enough fall - Big Zeb takes absolute crunching falls. His Cheltenham fall was pretty horrendous - I think there is every chance he would fall at a track like Sandown where the fences come so quickly.
I see every reason to tread carefully with the horse. To me he looks just a bit thick at his fences sometime and any amount of schooling at speed will make no difference (much like Moscow Flyer who still made howlers with all his experience). It is all about getting confidence and almost trying to forget his previous falls. Moscow used to generally find a leg or have an easy enough fall - Big Zeb takes absolute crunching falls. His Cheltenham fall was pretty horrendous - I think there is every chance he would fall at a track like Sandown where the fences come so quickly.
Bar the Bull
At the Start
27th December. What do I win?
I'll let Colm know.
Big Zeb will get plenty of chances to jump at speed between now and Cheltenham and I'm firmly with Gal on this who I think makes a very good point in his last post. What's important is how far Big Zeb's jumping has come. He fell twice at the first fence. Just doesn't get the landing gear out quick enough and trying to teach him that at speed when he is just getting the hang of it at half speed could set him back a year confidence wise, just to give the racing fan what he wants. What he really needs is to put in three clear rounds of jumping.
And his approach is very similar to Kimberlite King on Sunday. Objective one is to get around and then take your chances at the hard end of the race. And the next day it will be the same until his jumping becomes proficient. He's just not a natural at it. And no racing fan should be telling us to do it any differently as, if he falls, that's it......back to square one.
But isn't that the point, it doesn't need to make sense to you.....just the owner and the trainer who should, hopefully, know best for the horse although I'm sure Shads is about to launch into this thread and tell me what absolute rubbish I'm talking!! No pigeon hole intended, I just think this is a case of expectations gap coming to the fore.
The last piece was swiftly removed but Hamm, all I would say is that I would never have presumed to call someone I did not know well what you called me there. Thank you.
This is a discussion board and a discussion is what we are having. You think Zeb not going for the Tingle Creek is crazy. I tend to disagree and I've explained why and you've explained why. That's a discussion. I see the horse every few weeks in the yard and I can't even stand at his box without him getting agitated. I'm sure some will find this interesting but it still makes no difference as we're all crazy.
crazyhorse
At the Start
havent read the whole thread, cantoris, but why do you make big zeb nervous 
it was a lovely performance on sunday, and fingers crossed the horse continues to show that level of jumping; we are all in for a treat when he finally does meet Master Minded.
it was a lovely performance on sunday, and fingers crossed the horse continues to show that level of jumping; we are all in for a treat when he finally does meet Master Minded.
Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
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- 16,050
Taking on Master Minded at the pace he jumps is a whole other ball game to taking on those he beat in soft ground at the weekend. For all that he dominated, I still couldn't have Big Zeb when he meets something genuinely top-class over fences.
simmo
Senior Jockey
Good thread. Made additionally interesting by the differing styles of attempting to dictate pace and content.
Well my mother doesn't think I'm a dope and that's all that matters to me
You're being disparaging, not only to me but to Colm. Whether he runs in the tingle Creek is up to the owner/trainer and they need to be sure it makes sense, not you. This is completely different to whether your arguement makes sense or not. You are obviously entitled to your opinion which you have clearly expressed and that should be respected by all but there is plenty you need to know about these horses before you can say that everyone else is crazzeeeeee if they don't go along with your view.