The Champion Chase 2010

Hamm said:
Brilliant. Cantoris - I eat all the humble pie in the world!

To be fair, MM and KK ran way below form but take nothing away from the winner.
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You could of course eat humble pie with grace and not throw in the second line. I don't think I need to say much about that performance but those of us who know the horse and how good he is were not surprised today. I've said it before, so I might as well say it again, there is a lot of info that those outside a yard are not privy to and this is a fine example of when it proves worth listening to those who see the horse every few weeks.

Delighted for Colm and would love to be at the party but had to leave this evening.
 
Big Zeb gets an RPR of 175. Only Master Minded (186) and the holy trinity of Moscow (182), Well Chief (179 in defeat) and Azertyuiop (176) have been rated higher by them in this race (from '88 on).
 
Cantoris said:
You could of course eat humble pie with grace and not throw in the second line. I don't think I need to say much about that performance but those of us who know the horse and how good he is were not surprised today. I've said it before, so I might as well say it again, there is a lot of info that those outside a yard are not privy to and this is a fine example of when it proves worth listening to those who see the horse every few weeks.

Delighted for Colm and would love to be at the party but had to leave this evening.
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Cantoris,
First of all, it was said with good grace. Secondly, if you don't like someone expressing an opinion on a race in which you have an interest in a horse(even though as far as i'm aware you don't with this one), i suggest you bugger off from any forum - it is a fact MM ran way below form, and a blind man could see KK was never travelling - this doesn't take away from Big Zeb, it just tells it like it is.

As far as the last part of the first paragraph of your post, if only we listened to you, eh? FFS.
 
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Gareth Flynn said:
Big Zeb gets an RPR of 175. Only Master Minded (186) and the holy trinity of Moscow (182), Well Chief (179 in defeat) and Azertyuiop (176) have been rated higher by them in this race (from '88 on).
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In contrast, the official handicapper might be justified in keeping Big Zeb on 165, with him, ForPady and Oh Crick all running to their respective marks give or take a pound.
 
Somewhere in between? There is no way this horse, impressive as he was, would only be a couple of lengths down on the three superstars.
 
Hamm two days ago you were telling us to forget about Dunguibs placed efforts - since then you have come on and told us that ROP was capable of going better despite being well thumped and that Master Minded and Kalahari King all ran below form - with a rather lukewarm congrats to the winner....a bit of consistency?

Well done Cantoris - he more than lived up to expectations and a tremendous round of jumping. Clearly he was not right at Sandown and it was not his true running. Much like Sizing Europe I would imagine connections got as much thrill at proving their horse's knockers wrong as much as anything else. The RUK team (who I like) were particularly smug in their pre race analysis of both Sizing Europe and Big Zeb - good in Ireland but not good enough here simple as. Great results.



Cantoris said:
You could of course eat humble pie with grace and not throw in the second line. I don't think I need to say much about that performance but those of us who know the horse and how good he is were not surprised today. I've said it before, so I might as well say it again, there is a lot of info that those outside a yard are not privy to and this is a fine example of when it proves worth listening to those who see the horse every few weeks.

Delighted for Colm and would love to be at the party but had to leave this evening.
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Hamm said:
Somewhere in between? There is no way this horse, impressive as he was, would only be a couple of lengths down on the three superstars.
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I think that is more a reflection on how ridiculously lowly rated the three superstars were in their prime.
 
Galileo said:
Hamm two days ago you were telling us to forget about Dunguibs placed efforts - since then you have come on and told us that ROP was capable of going better despite being well thumped and that Master Minded and Kalahari King all ran below form - with a rather lukewarm congrats to the winner....a bit of consistency?
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FFS - read my post again - 'Brilliant. I'll eat all the humble pie in the world'. Do you want me to bow down before him?

Where was the good grace from Cantoris when BZ was thumped in the Tingle Creek? Excuses. I offered none for the beaten horses, but simply stated they didn't run to form - this is indisputable. Sometimes it takes 1 or more horses to not run to form for the horse you fancy to win - there is nothing wrong with this, nor does it lessen the horse you fancy's achievement of winning that race - it's horse racing.

Are we now not allowed to comment objectively on races that Cantoris acts like he has an involvement in horses in? Do let me know.

ROP - I said he wasn't good enough (or at least as good as I hoped he would be) and nor was Long Run (I would have been a weathy man relatively speaking if he had won yet offered no excuses, in stark contrast to many comments after the Dunguib race). You seem to have some sort of agenda here and I don't understand where you are coming from, picking up on small comments and things I don't even say. I have been honest in my opinion after each and every race, regardless of how much I may have won or lost (or came close to), and in the case of the champion chase, it's important to remember you can win with grace as well as lose with it.
 
I have no problem with you having a go at Big Zeb etc and I agree that the two horses you mentioned did run below form but in the context of how "maddening" you found it that people dared to look for reasons for Dunguib's defeat or even mentioning the possibility that the horse is better than that – that’s what I find hard to swallow from many of your posts since. On form Kalahari King should not have beaten Forpady yesterday.

Hamm said:
FFS - read my post again - 'Brilliant. I'll eat all the humble pie in the world'. Do you want me to bow down before him?

Where was the good grace from Cantoris when BZ was thumped in the Tingle Creek? Excuses. I offered none for the beaten horses, but simply stated they didn't run to form - this is indisputable. Sometimes it takes 1 or more horses to not run to form for the horse you fancy to win - there is nothing wrong with this, nor does it lessen the horse you fancy's achievement of winning that race - it's horse racing.

Are we now not allowed to comment objectively on races that Cantoris acts like he has an involvement in horses in? Do let me know.

ROP - I said he wasn't good enough (or at least as good as I hoped he would be) and nor was Long Run (I would have been a weathy man relatively speaking if he had won yet offered no excuses, in stark contrast to many comments after the Dunguib race). You seem to have some sort of agenda here and I don't understand where you are coming from, picking up on small comments and things I don't even say. I have been honest in my opinion after each and every race, regardless of how much I may have won or lost (or came close to), and in the case of the champion chase, it's important to remember you can win with grace as well as lose with it.
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what i found maddening was the little credit being given to the two ahead of Dunguib - I already said this. Dunguib could well, and possibly is better than he showed - however, he was priced up like he was already a 160+ horse, and people are assuming that is still the case - it isn't - he still has that to prove. He ran bloody well, his best race to date most likely and as DJ summised before the race, there wasn't much in it between the front 3.

I didn't do anything but offer a gracious well done, and a decent post to Cantoris - it's not my fault he acts like a spoilt child because I also stated the obvious. And, where am i having a go at Big Zeb??!! I said brilliant in my first post, and suggested an RPR of 170/171 - is this having a go?
 
I see know problems at all with Hamms posts..

it is clear from evidence of previous runs that MM and probably KK ran "below form". It is not clear that Dunguib has at all. Arguable that that is as well as he has run

The RUK team (who I like) were particularly smug in their pre race analysis of both Sizing Europe and Big Zeb - good in Ireland but not good enough here simple as. Great results.
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Great results for the bookies. I have been watching RUK this week (bar yesterday when i was there) and if anything they have completely played down the nationality thing. it is perfectly reasonable for any assessor to have queried BZ's ability in certain races after his appaling sandown performance. well i did :)
 
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clivex said:
I see know problems at all with Hamms posts..
it is clear from evidence of previous runs that MM and probably KK ran "below form". It is not clear that Dunguib has at all. Arguable that that is as well as he has run
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I agree with everything you say, but that was not the point.

Rite Of Passage might be capable of better, Master Minded certainly is, while Kalahari King should have finished closer to Forpadytheplasterer (but has now lost out to him twice)......the mere mention of Dunguib possibly being capable of better given how the race was run and his positioning seemed to be a major problem. The idea that Dunguib was not going to be the talking point win, lose or draw seems to surprise/annoy Hamm. Either way we have been over it enough at this stage.
 
The Dunguib talk about being possibly better isn't what annoyed me - he is most probably capable of better. However, so are the front 2 which got little or no talk because people had an idea that D was already a 160+ hurdler when this was not the case, and everyone seems to think he under-performed when he didn't.

You seem to be scrutinising my posts for things that aren't there.
 
I agree with everything you say, but that was not the point.
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Fair enough. I shouldnt be posting today. Can barely think straight after day at festival yesterday....
 
Hamm said:
Cantoris - it's not my fault he acts like a spoilt child
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:D, thanks Dad

So when Master Minded beats a bunch of underperformers....he's a star, but when Zeb beats a bunch of horses, they must have underperformed! Nothing wrong with the form of For Pady beating Kalahari King just as he did last year. When Zeb had an excuse at Sandown, he wasn't good enough....when Master Minded flops it must be the ground. Simples :rolleyes:

I think Grey would agree that those "involved" (and its a term loosely ised)in the yard have more information than those outside the yard. At least I offer it around.
 
So when Master Minded beats a bunch of underperformers....
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When MM thrashed VPU a couple of years back, King was adamant that he hadnt underperformed

Kings information was from the yard too
 
clivex said:
When MM thrashed VPU a couple of years back, King was adamant that he hadnt underperformed

Kings information was from the yard too
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I don't think VPU under performed - not at all - just nowhere near the horse his ratings ever suggested.
 
I don't think VPU under performed - not at all - just nowhere near the horse his ratings ever suggested
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Well it was in response to Cantoris's post....

Regardless of ratings (and this old stuff i know) I have never seen a 2 miler dominate a field and travel and jump so superbly in this race as as MM two years ago. He simply isnt what he was then. Sometimes the weights and measures should be put away and the sheer verve and brilliance of the performance appreciated for what it was.
 
clivex said:
Well it was in response to Cantoris's post....

Regardless of ratings (and this old stuff i know) I have never seen a 2 miler dominate a field and travel and jump so superbly in this race as as MM two years ago. He simply isnt what he was then. Sometimes the weights and measures should be put away and the sheer verve and brilliance of the performance appreciated for what it was.
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I have no problem admitting that Master Minded was not himself yesterday - I thought he was in trouble turning into the back straight and was surprised the commentators only really picked it up coming down the hill.
 
clivex said:
Well it was in response to Cantoris's post....

Regardless of ratings (and this old stuff i know) I have never seen a 2 miler dominate a field and travel and jump so superbly in this race as as MM two years ago. He simply isnt what he was then. Sometimes the weights and measures should be put away and the sheer verve and brilliance of the performance appreciated for what it was.
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I hear ya Clivex, it's not really about MMs past performances and I think he prob didn't handle the ground too well. He put up a brilliant performance when he won before. But one swan doesn't make a swallow and I thin the form of the Queen Mother was quite strong. Nothing wrong with For Pady on decent ground (which he gets so rarely) nor Kalahari's form.
 
To be fair, it wasnt a totally isolated performance by MM two years ago, but thats fair enough :)

Reminded me to watch race again Gal.... (was there yesterday and you know how it is).
 
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