The Champion Chase 2010
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Grasshopper
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I would have to respectfully disagree with this as regards Big Zeb, Gal.
At his very best, Big Zeb isn't in the same parish as Master Minded, Moscow Flyer, Azertyuiop, Flaship Uberalles and a few others I could name. He is almost certainly a below-average winner of the race, imo - like Newmill or Voy Por Ustedes.
When did I put him in the parish of MM, MF, Azertyuiop etc they are the greats. You can be well above average without being in the 180 bracket - as I see it the ratings have him below that bunch. He is a far superior animal to Newmill.
*Actually on reflection what Big Zeb achieved last week is not that far off what Master Minded has done since his first Champion. I would put Forpadytheplasterer ahead of the likes of Tidal Bay, an aged Well Chief, Mahongany Blaze etc all of which were runner up to MM since his big big win.
Grasshopper
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Gal, you said BZ was "well above average" for a winner of the Champion Chase. You can't then write off three of the most recent, as if they don't count.
Take a look through the list of Champion Chase winners in the last 20 years, then tell me BZ is an above average winner. For me, it is clear that he is not, and whilst Newmill might have been a bit harsh, once you look past him, there are very few previous winners you could put BZ ahead of. IMO.
I'm not trashing the horse. I'm only questioning your assertion about the value of the form.
I personally think it was probably not a great race (in the overall context of the event), but is the type to be over-rated simply because it was the Champion Chase. Not unlike the Connaught Chase was at the time.
Take a look through the list of Champion Chase winners in the last 20 years, then tell me BZ is an above average winner. For me, it is clear that he is not, and whilst Newmill might have been a bit harsh, once you look past him, there are very few previous winners you could put BZ ahead of. IMO.
I'm not trashing the horse. I'm only questioning your assertion about the value of the form.
I personally think it was probably not a great race (in the overall context of the event), but is the type to be over-rated simply because it was the Champion Chase. Not unlike the Connaught Chase was at the time.
I have long being saying the likes of Moscow Flyer and Azertyuiop were rated around 4-5lbs to low..so I cannot see I am writing them off. Just because Big Zeb is not a Moscow Flyer does not mean he has to be a Newmill.
He was top class since his novice days....just a horse with plenty of jumping issues that have held him back.
Grasshopper
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Gal, Big Zeb might be better than Newmill, but he is emphatically not a "well above average" winner of the Champion Chase. You need to take another look at the horses you are comparing him with.
In that case, Hamm, why did you select Big Zeb for your 10 To Follow list?
(I noticed yesterday while trawling through the entries for some Aintree clues).
I would definately say that Binocular has put in one of the best champion hurdle performances of recent years. Probably since istabraq. the gaps to second and third in a reasonable field must justify that. His previous lack of form wasnt down to poor jumping but probably down to him simply not being what he could be physically. big zebs comparitive failures have been down to simply not being a good enough jumper. Theres a difference Imo. And binocular hurdles beautifully...
i agree with Hamm. im not a ratings nut but that doesnt make a lot of sense to me
and every chance they will quickly resuface. one good round as opposed to numerous rotten ones is not an indication to me that hes suddenly got everything just right
i agree with Hamm. im not a ratings nut but that doesnt make a lot of sense to me
and every chance they will quickly resuface. one good round as opposed to numerous rotten ones is not an indication to me that hes suddenly got everything just right
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I agree - I think it is interesting that after Sandown and coming into Punchestown and then Cheltenham Murphy (who is no mug) seems pretty confident that they had sorted his jumping out. He has put two superb rounds of jumping back to back now.
Big Zeb has only won in England once. That is why we hear comments along the lines of him surprising people last week - because he was easily dismissed in the same manner as Sizing Europe [oh these Irish horses, winning soft races over there - they'll win nothing over here!]
As Clivex rightly pointed out above, Big Zeb's run against Master Minded at Punchestown last year proved he was very, very good. He flopped in the Tingle Creek and was duly dismissed as another stereotypical horse who mops up soft races at home.
In terms of the overall debate about where he stands, though, I'm not entirely convinced yet that he's an above average Champion Chase winner. But I certainly don't think that the field this year has been any worse than since the great Moscow, Azerty duels.....jumping like he did last week, he's a far better two miler than Newmill, Voy Por Ustedes etc...
As Clivex rightly pointed out above, Big Zeb's run against Master Minded at Punchestown last year proved he was very, very good. He flopped in the Tingle Creek and was duly dismissed as another stereotypical horse who mops up soft races at home.
In terms of the overall debate about where he stands, though, I'm not entirely convinced yet that he's an above average Champion Chase winner. But I certainly don't think that the field this year has been any worse than since the great Moscow, Azerty duels.....jumping like he did last week, he's a far better two miler than Newmill, Voy Por Ustedes etc...
Brave Inca started off low 90s
Feathard Lady had her sixth win off just 137 before tasting grade 1 success
Voler La Vadette 120 after six runs to 161 now
Is there a trend that he takes his time with horses and they improve significantly over time?
In his first six starts, Big Zeb finished 2nd to Clopf, Captain Cee Bee, Sizing Europe and Catch Me, the last one being the only one to beat him by more than 4 lengths. It is entirely conceivable that a horse who was not pushed as a young horse could improve significantly with time and as I said before, he had a bad Summer last season and that's why he was late coming back in. I had said he stayed with Colm the Summer past and had come back bigger, stronger and better. He is not better that MF, Azerty but he is a decent winner of a decent race.
Yes, we should have known Kauto would fall in the Gold Cup!!
Easy Irish Grade 1s - they have no-one else (I thought for some reason FPTP would step up in trip).
I said his chase starts - most (all?) the ones you list are hurdle races.
I like horses who improve with time, and like this approach from trainers. This though, hasn't been the case with BZ - he has improved no doubt, but he has been running in the same types of races for some time now, and I don't believe he is suddenly this much above average winner of a Champion Chase.
Btw, my original point was the ratings comparison with Binocular in case that gets lost - I think he is an abolsute superstar. For him to be rated about the same as BZ is scandalous imho - that is not a slight on BZ, more a reflection that there is something wrong with the relationship between hurdle and chase ratings.
Would have to disagree, if Binocular stays sound he could be any thing.
That was a good field he destroyed in CH, even if Go Native got injured at the second. Big Zeb was a good winner, but he's never struck me as a top class 2 miler in the mould of Moscow Flyer or MM.
And Binocular strikes you as Night Nurse and Istabraq then because that is the pretty unfair comparison that BZ is coming up against!
Like most debates comparing previous winners, you can argue anything you want but I think there has been a marked improvement in Big Zeb's form this season, if you take out the Sandown run when he had an excuse. In last seasons Tied Cottage he was coming to win it, but not win it by much when he fell two out. He tipped up at Cheltenham too far out to know. Then he would have beaten MM at Punchestown but for his jump at the last. He had a proper Summer break (no problems like the previos Summer) and comes back looking better than ever and if you take out the Sandown run (where he had an excuse.....which is allowed if it's MM at Cheltenham before crimbo but not if it's BZ), he won his two races in Ireland in much better fashion than he had before. There were plenty in Ireland who saw a physical change in him and Colm has always maintained this was going to be his year.
Can I put it out there that Binocular's performance could be like MMs first champion chas.....never to be repeated?? His form this season had been worse than last yet it seems that he's allowed those runs as he won well in the CH. Yet when BZ improves and has one bad run at Sandown before winning the CC, it must be a poor renewal. It just doesn't make sense to me. Who would I back if Zeb met Moscow......Moscow of course....but not by too far. It was fine for MF to be beating all those poor Irish horses at home, fall every third run and fall in a CC, but not Zeb.
Can I put it out there that Binocular's performance could be like MMs first champion chas.....never to be repeated?? His form this season had been worse than last yet it seems that he's allowed those runs as he won well in the CH. Yet when BZ improves and has one bad run at Sandown before winning the CC, it must be a poor renewal. It just doesn't make sense to me. Who would I back if Zeb met Moscow......Moscow of course....but not by too far. It was fine for MF to be beating all those poor Irish horses at home, fall every third run and fall in a CC, but not Zeb.
I have rarely seen more ifs in trying to put across an argument...
One thing you should note - it's jump racing. This argument about would have beaten whoever is nonsense - he didn't jump because he's not consistently good at it.
You ask should BZ be excused a la MM - there is one small difference here - MM had a cracked rib - BZ had no excuses whatsoever. despite what you say, BZ had no excuse at Sandown.
I'm not sure what Colm saying anything has to do with it.
Putting BZ in the same parish as Moscow Flyer is so far wide of the mark it is almost funny.
No-one on here is talking about Binocular 'this season'. I referenced his CH win, which is backed up by his trouncing of Celestial Halo at Ascot, and at Aintree the previous season. Binocular had also ran 2 heads short of winning a Champion the previous season as a 5 year old.
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