The current standard of Flat Jockeys

Ardross said:
Moore is a great jockey no doubt but he has ridden three stinkers at Epsom over the last two days .

Piggott is the best I have seen and by some margin . Nowadays we are constantly told that jockey A is brilliant round course B - Lester was brilliant everywhere . I have no doubt that Piggott when he was Moore's age would have got US Ranger a good deal closer today .
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I take it you have seen Moore ride globally.

Yep I expect you could have ridden/got him further forward earlier. He would have finished 3rd ultimately.
These are at different stages mentally not just physically.
 
tiggers1972 said:
You are the classic talk out of his pocket punter.
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What have I said about Spencer that is wrong? Was it a terrible ride on Second Step? Of course it was, was he too far back on the The Grey Gatsby in last year's Prince of Wales? Of course he was. Was he ludicrously negligent in the Beverley D at Arlington last year? Of course he was. So yes, I'm talking out of my pocket, the **** has cost me hundreds since deciding to not retire.

I accept ho hum rides as part of the game but when it happens time and again with the same brain dead midget it gets hard to take without venting a bit.
 
Frankel said:
I take it you have seen Moore ride globally.

Yep I expect you could have ridden/got him further forward earlier. He would have finished 3rd ultimately.
These are at different stages mentally not just physically.
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Not sure what Moore's riding styles in Japan , HK etc have to do with it . Fact is at Epsom if you are too far back coming down the hill you are at risk of them getting away from you and having to use up your horse too soon to get to them . I think that is what happened yesterday . As I have already said about five times , however, Harzand still might have found more and seen off US Army Ranger had he not been given so much to do .
 
Maruco said:
So if you believe that so strongly why back those horses Euro?
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Value. The Grey Gatsby was a huge price in last year's POW based on recency bias and Moore's baffling political decision to ride Cannock Chase (would Piggott have ever passed up a ride on a more likely winner of a race for that reason) and I really wasn't worried about Second Step jockey wise. He had been up with the pace in the Yorkshire Cup so tactically I didn't expect his to be held up in such a small field.

Ultimately though I'd rather have a vent after a bad ride than risk not having money on a horse at a price I like because Spencer is riding and see him win. That would hurt far more.

Another jockey I really don't like is Pat Cosgrave and I did avoid backing Predominance at Chester partly based on the track/draw, but partly based on knowing he would receive an uninspiring ride.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I will be interested to see Simon Rowlands's sectional analysis. It looked to me like they went fast for 4 furlongs then slowed up almost to a canter for about three furlongs before bombing it for the last five.
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An extract from his piece:

Sectional timing of the 2016 Derby shows that the early pace was much stronger than ideal – and that the further back the better at that stage – but that a markedly steadier pace mid-race meant that the principals at least managed to run the business end fairly close to par.
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I'm not a good one at judging flat jockeys but Tom segal makes the point that spencer is excellent in handicaps where they go off too fast such as at Ascot. Overall segal really puts up a strong case for him but I don't get it. Although he is not entirely one tracked in method it is far too often the same tactic regardless of whether suitable for the horse or course. That's not good enough and I'm with euro on this

dettori I actually think can be a little underrated perhaps because of his slightly tiresome perosniality. I can think of no jockey since Cauthen who judges it so perfectly when he hits the front. You can almost turn away off 4f out and collect the winnings at Ascot and York. To me that's a huge positive and a great skill that most do not have

moore is touched with genuine magic
 
Euronymous said:
Value. The Grey Gatsby was a huge price in last year's POW based on recency bias and Moore's baffling political decision to ride Cannock Chase (would Piggott have ever passed up a ride on a more likely winner of a race for that reason) and I really wasn't worried about Second Step jockey wise. He had been up with the pace in the Yorkshire Cup so tactically I didn't expect his to be held up in such a small field.

Ultimately though I'd rather have a vent after a bad ride than risk not having money on a horse at a price I like because Spencer is riding and see him win. That would hurt far more.

Another jockey I really don't like is Pat Cosgrave and I did avoid backing Predominance at Chester partly based on the track/draw, but partly based on knowing he would receive an uninspiring ride.
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I'm more of the belief that Second Step was just out for the air yesterday rather than trying to win. I'll need to look again in a few days once I've tried to clear my head of any such preconceived notion.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I'm more of the belief that Second Step was just out for the air yesterday rather than trying to win. I'll need to look again in a few days once I've tried to clear my head of any such preconceived notion.
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I wasn't interested in a win, I was heavily involved in the place market. I knew he had the beating of at least one of the three principals, I was correct.
 
I think it was more (especially given who trains SS) thinking they couldn't beat Postponed. Looking on the bright side it might make his price in the Princess of Wales at the July meeting.
 
gus said:
Why would you run a horse in the Coronation Cup and not be trying to win?
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For the same reason that horses run in lots of big races and aren't trying. Maybe people close to the horse sold it on the spreads. I remember a few Derbies in the past where you could have sworn that horses from certain yards had been backed to be last (they offered that market back then). There was usually two or three involved in the equivalent of a slow cycle race from 6f out.

If it isn't going to win and you have another target in mind, a below-par run in a big race sometimes leads to a sharper drop than a defeat in a lesser race. He might have the Ebor in mind or, if his previous run led them to conclude he didn't stay that trip, maybe the Chookie Embra (but I couldn't tell you right now if the weights are already out).

I reckon plenty of horses run in G1s for no good reason [to me] though. What connections have in mind is their business, I suppose.

I backed SS last time and he was ultimately disappointing. I was hoping he might be trained for Melbourne and I suppose he might still be. This would be a second disappointing show and maybe the handicapper will have noted it. Maybe they have to run him down the park in a big race to get the Australian handicapper to notice. I really don't know.

He looked like a non-trier to me but maybe they were experimenting with new tactics which didn't work.

As for the quoted question, I was asked the same when I ventured beforehand that a certain horse wouldn't be trying in the Hennessy. I was lightly ridiculed for the suggestion. Even though the trainer had already said another race was the target. The horse was gubbed at Newbury.
 
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There are various reasons to run in a Gr1 while not trying to win. The main one would be as part of a programme to get a horse fit. Another would be to do the racing authorities and industry a favour by helping to ensure a field strong enough - on paper at least - for the race to retain its status.
 
Ss is rated 6lbs below the winner. Lines through sv and found shows that he ran close to his mark. What on earth was expected?

i do not believe for a minute he lacked for fitness. Wouldn't Luca rather liked to have grabbed that race given what's gone before?
 
Postponed is likely a 10 lb better horse since leaving Luca's care, no offence to Luca just a mix of maturity and confidence.
A lot of horses just do not act around Epsom yet we would all like to have a runner on Derby day especially if expenses are covered.
Back to the theme there are plenty of capable jockeys around.
While they are not as recognisable as the older brigade they are still capable, probably fitter and have much improved diets.
All have mechanical horses (or at least access to them ) and I imagine this along with racing schools brings "neatness " and aerodynamics into the equation.
In the old days jockeys who tried modelling themselves on Lester usually failed miserably, Geoff Lewis based his style on Sir Gordon, Pat Eddery his style on "Weary Willie " Williamson and Kieren Fallon's style as an apprentice encouraged one wit to say "Paddy Kiely rides again !"
I am sure no racing school would encourage such styles.
Yet Ryan Moore, Frankie, Pat Smullen etc would hold their own with any of them.
As an aside when Donnacha o' Brien rode Apache Gold in a hands and heels race last Sept at Gowran I asked him if he had dropped his stirrups a few notches to get a better leg use: he looked at me as if i was insane. Apache finished second "he missed the whip "
Watching his win on Order Of St George last Friday he took the hint from a higher (less insane) power.
Don't suppose i can take any credit.
 
One thing missing from this as well, is that current jockeys cant bully their horses over the line.
 
HawkWing said:
One thing missing from this as well, is that current jockeys cant bully their horses over the line.
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Jimmy Fortune is the exception; j Gosden said he is reminded of Laffit Pincay when he sees jimmy riding.
Many years ago when Willie Shoemaker was on his World Retirement tour a match was arranged at Ascot or Sandown between himself and Lester.
The two horses were seasoned handicappers trained by John Jenkins and Harry Thompson Jones.
lester was delighted to ride the latter as he knew the former was ungenuine and would stop once picked up.
Anyways Willie jumped off in front with Lester sitting behind and two furlongs out Lester brought his fellow to challenge knowing once Willie went after his horse the race was over. Willie never did, he just kept throwing his reins at the horse who galloped on genuinely to the line, defeating Lester by a half length or so.
Lester could not believe it but that was the genius of Willie the Shoe.
Someone here may have been present that day; I am relying on memory of an article written by Ian Carnaby in the Irish Field so trainer's names may be incorrect.
 
edgt said:
Jimmy Fortune is the exception; j Gosden said he is reminded of Laffit Pincay when he sees jimmy riding.
Many years ago when Willie Shoemaker was on his World Retirement tour a match was arranged at Ascot or Sandown between himself and Lester.
The two horses were seasoned handicappers trained by John Jenkins and Harry Thompson Jones.
lester was delighted to ride the latter as he knew the former was ungenuine and would stop once picked up.
Anyways Willie jumped off in front with Lester sitting behind and two furlongs out Lester brought his fellow to challenge knowing once Willie went after his horse the race was over. Willie never did, he just kept throwing his reins at the horse who galloped on genuinely to the line, defeating Lester by a half length or so.
Lester could not believe it but that was the genius of Willie the Shoe.
Someone here may have been present that day; I am relying on memory of an article written by Ian Carnaby in the Irish Field so trainer's names may be incorrect.
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The match race was between two classy horses as I recall it Princes Gate trained by HTJ and Spanish Pool trained I think by Jeremy Hindley . Princes Gate ridden by Shoemaker led all the way . Spanish Pool had the better form but had had a hard season and found little when asked to go past .
 
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