The Derby

Yeah, I couldn't really think of anything that should have been there that wasn't.

Chances of Saxon Warrior reversing the form in the Irish Derby (assuming Masar goes). I'd be driven by the prices on that one - chances are Saxon Warrior could even be favourite for a repeat meeting, in which case I'd side with Masar. SW at a price (I'm thinking at least 7/1) would be interesting.
 
edgt said:
All the more reason to celebrate a Derby winner from other than Ballydoyle.
It can be done if you have the goods.
For me the first five horses are all decent and once the race has not taken its toll they will represent their crop well through the year.
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I think that is right. As regards the winner we are talking about a horse who was 3rd in the guineas and won a Derby. Roaring Lion and Hazarpour look 10f horses now. I was counting my winnings as Hazarpour came round the corner but he went out like a light. The way Dettori rode him he seemed to think he was going to win. They'll both be back. I think SW is a conundrum. Is he a stayer as AOB obviously thought or is he actually a miler.

I'm interested to see Young Rascal run next time. If there was a horse not suited by the course it was him.

The 6th horse for the Leger?
 
simmo said:
What horses do we think should have been there that weren't?
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I dont follow flat racing as much as I used to so cant give you names but of all the 3 year olds in training, only 12 turn up on reasonable ground to take their chance? Some big name trainers/ owmers without an entry who one might expect to have at least one contender.
 
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Desert Orchid said:
It seems the Derby offers a barometer of the atmosphere on the forum.

Only two pages to an entire thread on 'the world's greatest flat race' and only half-a-dozen post-race comments.

.
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Triple crown winner across the pond hasn't got a mention either :(

Haven't been doing much in the way of form study myself for a while just can't seem to get into it at the moment. I've got a long weekend away at the end of June and I'm sort of planning on getting back to work after that so hopefully I can stick my two penneth in for the remainder of the Flat season. My take on the Derby was that Saxon Warrior didn't handle the track, the end. That not pocket talk because I hadn't backed him I was waiting on DXB for a chunk.
 
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Greatest flat race in the world???????????you having a laugh?

When is the last time a Derby winner headed the Global Rankings?

How many American horses travel to try and win this Greatest horse race or French for that matter?

There's more horses travel to Australia for the Melbourne Cup than come to the UK for the Derby. We send brigades to the Breeders and the Arc

The Derby may be important in our little Island but it has been knocked off the top 10 in prize money and it's importance on the world stage grows less by the year.

The race has produced about 4 Arc winners in 30 years..tells you everything
 
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The global rankings are absolute ****. And in the last 10 years I would argue New Approach, Sea the Stars and Golden Horn have been the best horses in training anywhere in the world for the year they were 3yos and Derby winners. Pretty good.
 
FFS man go find me one website outside of Epsom that says the Derby is in the first 5 of the most prestige's horses races in the world?


I already said we have only had 4 top ranked horses from the race in 40 years and you have just mentioned 2 of them. As for New Approach he was in and out and wouldn't be in the top 30 of all time.
 
BTW no sense in waiting for DO to respond he doesn't like intelligent debating posters, When he comes up with totally stupid statements which is a regular occurrence with him and you disagree he puts you on IGNORE.

IGNORE btw should be removed IMO..if you can't handle constructively being disagreed and get over your differences with whoever you should move to a Barbie Doll forum.

A forum consists of a discussion group where all should be allowed to be heard by all.
 
Tanlic said:
I already said we have only had 4 top ranked horses from the race in 40 years and you have just mentioned 2 of them.
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Troy
Shergar
Reference Point
Nashwan
Generous
Galileo

All in the last 40 years as well as the ones I've already mentioned.
 
Tanlic said:
BTW no sense in waiting for DO to respond he doesn't like intelligent debating posters, When he comes up with totally stupid statements which is a regular occurrence with him and you disagree he puts you on IGNORE.

IGNORE btw should be removed IMO..if you can't handle constructively being disagreed and get over your differences with whoever you should move to a Barbie Doll forum.

A forum consists of a discussion group where all should be allowed to be heard by all.
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and maybe you need to learn how to disagree constructively.......
 
Im not really into the derby and oaks.if aiden o'brien hadnt sent any over then the oaks would have had 4 runners and the derby 7.
Its a unique track,so theres no point coming from america or australia if you dont handle the track.
 
simmo said:
and maybe you need to learn how to disagree constructively.......
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IMO you already have the necessary learning skills to start posting more than one liners.

It would be quite something to see you graduate to paragraphs

I wish you luck in all future postings over 10 words
 
Outsider said:
Im not really into the derby and oaks.if aiden o'brien hadnt sent any over then the oaks would have had 4 runners and the derby 7.
Its a unique track,so theres no point coming from america or australia if you dont handle the track.
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a valid point but without researching it haven't British and Irish trainers sent horses all the way to the USA to race on dirt without any experience of doing so?
 
Tanlic said:
a valid point but without researching it haven't British and Irish trainers sent horses all the way to the USA to race on dirt without any experience of doing so?
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Not just that Tanlic most of the tracks I've seen Breeders cups run on are ridiculously sharp running top races around tracks worse than Chester.
 
Tanlic said:
Greatest flat race in the world???????????you having a laugh?

When is the last time a Derby winner headed the Global Rankings?

How many American horses travel to try and win this Greatest horse race or French for that matter?

There's more horses travel to Australia for the Melbourne Cup than come to the UK for the Derby. We send brigades to the Breeders and the Arc

The Derby may be important in our little Island but it has been knocked off the top 10 in prize money and it's importance on the world stage grows less by the year.

The race has produced about 4 Arc winners in 30 years..tells you everything
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Americans don't come for our Derby as the trip is seen as a complete non entity over there really. Americans don't do stayers, period ! 1m4f is a marathon trip to them. All they talk about after the Belmont is stamina. We'd sometimes use the expression of not quick enough for the Derby, or he's a Leger horse or he'll make a top class stayer.

Have you ever heard a yank say a horse doesn't have the speed for the Belmont ?

10f is more in fashion over recent years I've often thought if we could find a horse to do the Triple crown over here and go on to do well at Stud that might change things a little.

I also think Global ratings are a bit of a farce without going into too many other things how many horses that have topped that list have run on Lasix at some point or another.

More horses travelling to the Melbourne Cup somewhere in the midst of a foggy mind I believe thats something the Aussies do with regards the package they put together for people to travel over regarding cost, I may be wrong but I'm sure I recall a trainer mentioning how they made it affordable for him and he couldn't really travel horses anywhere else as it wasn't worthwhile.

4 Arc winners in 30 years might not be as bad as it sounds statistically but I have't really looked into the stat myself.
 
I'm fairly sure that no expenses are paid for Melbourne Cup entries, Danny. I think it's still the case that invitations are issued to overseas horses for the Cox Plate which includes travel expenses for horse and connections but going for the Melbourne Cup will cost a minimum of £10k just to transport the horse so you'd be talking at least twice that all in.

I don't think that you can get a proper handle on a horse's ability until it has won races that are not restricted by age or gender.
 
simmo said:
and maybe you need to learn how to disagree constructively.......
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I reckon occasions when I've been presented with constructive criticism and/or research-backed debate and shied away are very few and far between.

As far as I know, the only people I have on ignore are people who have resorted to abuse in the absence of the foregoing.
 
archie said:
I don't think that you can get a proper handle on a horse's ability until it has won races that are not restricted by age or gender.
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It's a logical argument but I don't necessarily agree.

Thanks to ratings, once you get a 3yo hitting 130 and the ongoing form backing the rating up, as opposed to casting doubt on it, then you can be pretty sure you have a pretty solid idea of how it might fare once it takes on older horses. If they come up against a 135 older horse they'll probably be beaten. If they take on 125-rated older horses they'll probably win.

At this stage of the season, though, I accept it's more tenuous.
 
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