The election 2015

if you don't "care" or understand. Markets then you simply do not understand money in the slightest and shouldn't have kicked off a debate

the idea that markets are the preserve of the right wing or selfish (as has been suggested here ) is frankly mental. It's like saying oxygen is only for scientists

next time you sell your car and don't take the lowest offer, then remind yourself how right wing and selfish you are

funny how suddenly the rents issue is "rubbish" as soon as i quoted Warbs figures ...then i get your mate calling me paranoid..well its not paranoid is it..as soon as I say something you have to come with the ..you thicko card.

i understand what affects real people Clive..hence the money in/money out scenario that most of us mere mortals face most our life.....thats why i started it..i'm a bit tired of hearing people like you tell folk how well off they are..if they are then it should show in ANY measure done. Your problem is when it shows in a measure that gives a result you don't like then that person is stupid..a moron..doesn't understand

You like getting your own way in life clearly..which is fine with me..but i don't think there is a need to assume everyone is a moron who doesn't fall in with your line of thinking
 
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AAgain you get all paranoid without even bothering to read what was stated. And I think that underlines where you are coming from . You just come out with rhetoric but never ever take on board anything that contradicts your limited world view.

its blazingly obvious once again

the one bedroom properties are not "typical" at all. As I said and shouldn't have to say again, they are the preserve and always have been of those with a higher income or assets.

frankly if you couldn't even read that before responding then it's a total waste of time
 
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Clive

lets get back to Corbyn..its less hassle

its getting so entertaining now..watching all the blair clones crapping themselves about what he comes up with next

they might as well have,today Corbyn said"we will bring back....."...just fill in the blank with whatever each day.

i'm loving it
 
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AAgain you get all paranoid without even bothering to read what was stated. And I think that underlines where you are coming from . You just come out with rhetoric but never ever take on board anything that contradicts your limited world view

its blazingly obvious once again

the one bedroom properties are not "typical" at all. As. Said and shouldn't have to say again, they are the preserve and always have been of those with a higher income or assets..

frankly if you couldn't even take that on board before responding then it's a total waste of time

again..why aren't you directing this at Warb..can you not read?..its him thats looking in to it..not me..you shooting the messenger.

read above post..lets have a rest from this
 
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Clive

lets get back to Corbyn..its less hassle

its getting so entertaining now..watching all the blair clones crapping themselves about what he comes up with next

they might as well have,today Corbyn said"we will bring back....."...just fill in the blank with whatever each day.

i'm loving it

you are loving the fact that he is bringing back clause 4 (although trying to ride back on it now) when it is the biggest statement of intent to create a near communist society ? It was obsolete years before it was dropped and barely believed in by few other than nutters. You would have thought he would have a new idea or two but all he does is go back to 1984. On every issue

hes useless frankly.
 
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if rents are too high then younger people with talent will take work in other cities in preference.

That's part of the danger Clive, as you start to export a property bubble in the rental sector, it's ultimately going to show up in wage demands. If thes eis purely a reflection of "I can't afford to live" and comes without productivity gains, what happens next?
 
....then i get your mate calling me paranoid.

Give it a fu*cking rest will you.

Be careful what you wish for with Corbyn. You can bet your tank on the Tories to get another 5 years, if he is elected leader.
 
you are loving the fact that he is bringing back clause 4 (although trying to ride back on it now) when it is the biggest statement of intent to create a near communist society ? It was obsolete years before it was dropped and barely believed in by few other than nutters. You would have thought he would have a new idea or two but all he does is go back to 1984. In every issue

hes useless frankly

I'm just loving how he is shaking up the party

i am even coming round to the idea he will lead in oppo..he is now getting young people interested in politics..they will all be paying their 3 quid to vote for him.

He will never implement anything..even if he ever got PM job he couldn't bring back clause 4..without party support. He talks like he can do all these things on his own..its brilliant stuff. Its livened the leadership up..just think if he hadn't run..it would have been 4 boring clones instead of 3.

To be fair..he is actually highlighting how near the rest of labour are to the tories...because he is so far from the clones..they may as well be tories
 
Give it a fu*cking rest will you.

Be careful what you wish for with Corbyn. You can bet your tank on the Tories to get another 5 years, if he is elected leader.

no..you give it a f*ckin rest

Tories will be in for 3 or 4 terms..or even forever from what i can see..i don't really care who labour leader is..they are all the same thats up for it apart from Corbyn..if he is leader at least PM question time for then next 4 years will be worth watching
 
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the one bedroom properties are not "typical" at all. As I said and shouldn't have to say again, they are the preserve and always have been of those with a higher income or assets.

You've lost me slightly here. One bedroom properties "are the preserve and always have been of those with a higher income or assets". Are you talking landlord or tennant here? I'm struggling to believe anyone renting a one bedroom property is as you describe, albeit they can contain a numerically small number of well paid single professionals and people visiting whose employers will not infrequently own the property anyway

One bedroom properties can be anything from penthouses in Docklands to a room in a HOMO (that's a house of multiple occupation). We've seen plenty of this in the last decade with landlords buying up old 3 or 4 storey town houses and then sub dividing every room into a bedroom and cramming up to 8 -10 tenants in. You've also seen an explosion in what's called garden grabbing.

If you use the figure for two bedroomed houses the burden increases further. But there is an understanding that the second bedroom is yours, not someone elses. If it were someone elses, then that let is then counted as a one bedroom let
 
Because you can't take a single room flat rental and average earnings as typical. Especially for the young. Bedsits are around £125 a week where I am. That's the usual

when I was in my twenties I didn't know of anyone that rented a flat alone .
 
no..you give it a f*ckin rest

Tories will be in for 3 or 4 terms..or even forever from what i can see..i don't really care who labour leader is..they are all the same thats up for it apart from Corbyn..if he is leader at least PM question time for then next 4 years will be worth watching

by all accounts he will be a disaster. Not the wittiest or sharpest and a poor speaker apparently. Against Cameron then osbournes or worst of all boris, it will be humiliating especially with a big chunk of the party sullenly not supporting him

he feels like someone who's just dropped into this without any real original ideas and is relying on a time warp. A far left candidate with something new to say might be of interest but he has nothing.
 
can we keep the thread on track without the abuse etc please

I love political threads, they always end up going sooooo well :D
 
That's the sort of information that would be more useful Clive (#663), as it would allow you to take the bottom decile on a housing indicator, and then over lay it against the corresponding decile for income, so as to ensure you're comparing like with like all the way up the food chain. Overlaying a bedsit rent on a minimum wage etc and working up from there. This information has proven much harder to find than I thought it would in truth. It used to be easily accessible, and OCSI still have it, but you have to pay now

The general picture I'm seeing however is private rents accounting for anywhere between 35% and 50% of personal income in this sector of society, in this geographic location. This is an horrendous drain, and real disincentive. You work hard to hand over your money over to a landlord. Equally you can find youself coming out with so little that it starts to propogate what I'll call a bad work attitude. Ultimately this starts to damage a product or service, and with it competitiveness. Especially if it starts to show up in wage demands without a productivity gain.

We've certainly seen governments increasing the number of in work benefits for the low paid, and also raising the tax thresholds to help them. This is I believe, a direct response to the pressures they're under in their private housing arrangements. Take a step back and see it for what it is. It's the government, subsidising employers who would otherwise been under pressure to pay it, so that a private landlord benefits. You'd have to be radio rental to think this is both a sustainable and desirable model for society to continue running with.

The state shouldn't be subsidising employers in this area, and neither should we expect employers to be subsidising landlords. We need to introduce new supply into the market to reduce the inflationary pressures, and amount landlords can charge. Where are we going otherwise

Personally, I'd rather hand it over to a government, at least there's half a chance we'd get something back for it as a society. Who knows, they might even buy us an army to fight the next world with, or roads, or schools, or a health service. What will the private sector landlord do though? Buy more property, or spend it on foreign manufactured goods or holidays. It's a drain in our economy

The thing about the way this has evolved though is that it's discriminating. The boomers and generation X are going to feed of the millenials and then expect them to pay for their care in old age too, as the next cohort after generation X in particular (I don't think they have a name) haven't made pension provision

We've got a serious problem emerging here, and if you trace it back upstream, a lot of it empties out on property
 
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I don't think too many young in full employment are entitled to or receive rent support. I don't know the rules but I doubt it's a factor. Especially eith those in London chasing a career
 
He announced last week that asylum seekers will no longer be entitled to receive it, if that helps you grasp how far behind the curve they are (most economic migrants won't even be aware they were entitled to it, so it won't make any difference in that direction) - ah you said, full time employment. That's different. I'm pretty certain there's provision in tax credits and other in work benefits for the low paid though

Support does of course come in other guises (doesn't matter what name you call it by way of a policy) its a backdoor way of trying to relieve the pressures on low income young people brought about the crisis in private sector rented housing.

Whatever 'scheme' you call it, the effect is the same. The objective is to take a way a burden that would otherwise appear on employers. That's laudable. But so that private sector landlords are the ultimate beneficiaries? Come on.

I'd rather government take £300 in tax a month than have us giving the same amount to landlords
 
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I can't get particularly engaged in social security and rent to be honest. Feels a bit like a local council meeting. It's trikes me as one of those problems which ideally wouldn't exist but there is no solution to

It's only ever a very small percentage of the market and we have been talking about it in general

corbyn is clear favourite with bookies now. First time I think.
 
On a tangent, since when was Grassy a 'member of the right'? :)

The same Grassy who wants dope legalised and for the west to use the opium crops in Afghanistan as some sort of second income for the treasury? :)

Seriously, I had Grasshopper down as a man with a mind of his own, and someone who would rather buy The Daily Mail to wipe his arse with than actually read. :)
 
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I can't get particularly engaged in social security and rent to be honest. Feels a bit like a local council meeting. It's trikes me as one of those problems which ideally wouldn't exist but there is no solution to

It's only ever a very small percentage of the market and we have been talking about it in general

I think you're being very cavalier Clive. Ignore the labels that are being used for the moment to pigeon hole people (as they needn't help) and take a step back and follow the money instead rather than falling into the trap of badge association

Doubtless you'll be aware of the debate that's surfaced in the last few years regarding 'the living wage'. If the minimum wage was doing it's job, this wouldn't be an issue. However pressure in the low paid sector has pushed the living wage to the forefront of the political agenda. Where has this pressure come from? Almost exclusively it's come from pressure in the private sector rental market where inflation has ripped to pieces any defaltion in other areas

The Living Wage Foundation have set the figure at £7.85 and £9.15 for London. This eclipses the £6.50 of the minimum wage

The government have recognised this pressure and responded through the tax system, and to a lesser extent 'in work' benefits. Government's don't normally enact policy that reduces their revenue

If you don't believe me, I'll submit the verdict of KPMG for you as they're partners in the LWF and have run their own numbers

"5.28million UK workers are being paid less than the Living Wage, with huge swathes of employees working in the retail, catering and care sectors, clustered around minimum wage pay levels.

Mike Kelly, Head of Living Wage, KPMG said: “Far too many UK employees are stuck in the spiral of low pay. The research identifies statistics and trends, but it also reports the concerns of people earning below the Living Wage who expect their finances to worsen during the next 12 months and shows that debt levels have continued to rise among this group.

“Unless wages rise, a significant sector of the UK population will see themselves caught between the desire to contribute to society and the inability to afford to do so.

“Business benefits of the Living Wage include higher retention and productivity, and over 1,000 responsible businesses recognise this. The Living Wage may not be possible for every business, but is certainly not impossible to explore the feasibility of paying it.”

I'm sure you'll agree, 5.28M is not a small percentage? (it's a little bit less than the entire population of Scotland). There are other economic costs;

Rhys Moore, Director, Living Wage Foundation said: “As the recovery continues it’s vital that the proceeds of growth are properly shared. It’s not enough to simply hope for the best. It will take concerted action by employers, government and civil society to raise the wages of the 5 million workers who earn less than the Living Wage.

“The good news is that the number of accredited Living Wage employers has more than doubled this year – over 1,000 employers across the UK have signed up. In the last 12 months the number of Living Wage employers in the FSTE 100 has risen from four to 18 including Canary Wharf Group and Standard Life.

“Those businesses that can should follow the example of Nestle and Nationwide, as well as hundreds of smaller, independent businesses like CTS Cleaning and Hodgson Sayers Roofing, who pay the Living Wage.

“Low pay costs the taxpayer money – firms that pay the minimum wage are seeing their workers’ pay topped up through the benefits system. So it’s right that we recognise and celebrate those employers who are voluntarily signing up to the higher Living Wage, and saving the taxpayer money in the process.


Now I'm seriously struggling to believe that HM Treasury would have introduced these changes to the tax and benefits system if this grievance wasn't real?

So I invite you to trace the pressures back up stream and see where they sprang from? The inescapable conclusion is that they've come from private sector landlords renting at extortionate rates brought about through a deadly cocktail of low supply and increasing demand. In effect the Treasury and tax payer is subsidising the private incomes of landlords to prevent the burden falling on business. Is that sensible? Is it moral? Are private sector landlords so integral to the UK economy? Are they the only people capable of providing this service?

The clear answer is that they aren't, but billions of pounds disappear from the economy by way of potential consumer spend into this black hole every year and the taxpayer foots the bill. Why oh why are we prioritising the personal wealth of private sector landlords like this? It's crazy

OK it's to simplistic to perform this transfer as I describe it, but we would be better off as a society and an economy if we could reduce the cost of renting by say £300 a month using alternative methods of supply side provision, or changes to policy, and then increase the level of tax by £200. It represents a net gain to the Treasury and the tenant. The only loser is the private sector landlord. So what? A lot of these landlords don't buy new build anyway, so they won't kick start a housing boom. They tend to buy Victorian houses and convert them into as many rabbit hutch bedrooms as they can cram in. Further more, they aren't really wealth creators or job generators (well certainly not to the extent that can justify their subsidy - and what jobs they do create could still be carried out by sub-contractors through other supply side providers). If anything they suck wealth out of the economy. The best they can claim to do is circulate money instead. They don't really generate export sales, or foreign income earnings either, which is going to be so vital to our economy now. It's a really bad area to prioritise and shelter

I do believe however that there might be another culprit lying even further back, and that is the UK consumer who could do some real damage to our balance of payments if they were suddenly unburdened of £3500 property bondage per annum. Contrast with Germany where they can be relied on to spend their higher incomes on German products which will defend German jobs and economic objectives.
 
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its pretty clear the media are desperate for Corbyn to win..his is virtually the only name you hear much about..there is something about him near on everyday...then the only time you see a clone..instead of bulling themselves up..they just try and rebut what corbyn has come out with that day...hilarious.

If the Labour party don't want him to lead the party then their best chance is to remove 2 of the other three from the election...that way they have a chance..but with 3 of them sharing the blair clone vote..he will win easily with loads of young folk voting for him i reckon..oh and Tory supporters also voting for him:)

letting anyone who wants to..pay 3 quid to vote ..is a joke..wide open to abuse

if Corbyn does win i wonder how long it will take for the gang of 4 situation to kick in ..could be a gang of 44 this time

i've wondered if Liz Kendall is actually a Tory plant to make sure he wins it tbh:)

She alone epitomises why the party needs a complete overhall
 
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I think you're being very cavalier Clive. Ignore the labels that are being used for the moment to pigeon hole people (as they needn't help) and take a step back and follow the money instead rather than falling into the trap of badge association Doubtless you'll be aware of the debate that's surfaced in the last few years regarding 'the living wage'. If the minimum wage was doing it's job, this wouldn't be an issue. However pressure in the low paid sector has pushed the living wage to the forefront of the political agenda. Where has this pressure come from? Almost exclusively it's come from pressure in the private sector rental market where inflation has ripped to pieces any defaltion in other areas The Living Wage Foundation have set the figure at £7.85 and £9.15 for London. This eclipses the £6.50 of the minimum wage The government have recognised this pressure and responded through the tax system, and to a lesser extent 'in work' benefits. Government's don't normally enact policy that reduces their revenue If you don't believe me, I'll submit the verdict of KPMG for you as they're partners in the LWF and have run their own numbers "5.28million UK workers are being paid less than the Living Wage, with huge swathes of employees working in the retail, catering and care sectors, clustered around minimum wage pay levels. Mike Kelly, Head of Living Wage, KPMG said: “Far too many UK employees are stuck in the spiral of low pay. The research identifies statistics and trends, but it also reports the concerns of people earning below the Living Wage who expect their finances to worsen during the next 12 months and shows that debt levels have continued to rise among this group. “Unless wages rise, a significant sector of the UK population will see themselves caught between the desire to contribute to society and the inability to afford to do so. “Business benefits of the Living Wage include higher retention and productivity, and over 1,000 responsible businesses recognise this. The Living Wage may not be possible for every business, but is certainly not impossible to explore the feasibility of paying it.” I'm sure you'll agree, 5.28M is not a small percentage? (it's a little bit less than the entire population of Scotland). There are other economic costs; Rhys Moore, Director, Living Wage Foundation said: “As the recovery continues it’s vital that the proceeds of growth are properly shared. It’s not enough to simply hope for the best. It will take concerted action by employers, government and civil society to raise the wages of the 5 million workers who earn less than the Living Wage. “The good news is that the number of accredited Living Wage employers has more than doubled this year – over 1,000 employers across the UK have signed up. In the last 12 months the number of Living Wage employers in the FSTE 100 has risen from four to 18 including Canary Wharf Group and Standard Life. “Those businesses that can should follow the example of Nestle and Nationwide, as well as hundreds of smaller, independent businesses like CTS Cleaning and Hodgson Sayers Roofing, who pay the Living Wage. “Low pay costs the taxpayer money – firms that pay the minimum wage are seeing their workers’ pay topped up through the benefits system. So it’s right that we recognise and celebrate those employers who are voluntarily signing up to the higher Living Wage, and saving the taxpayer money in the process. Now I'm seriously struggling to believe that HM Treasury would have introduced these changes to the tax and benefits system if this grievance wasn't real? So I invite you to trace the pressures back up stream and see where they sprang from? The inescapable conclusion is that they've come from private sector landlords renting at extortionate rates brought about through a deadly cocktail of low supply and increasing demand. In effect the Treasury and tax payer is subsidising the private incomes of landlords to prevent the burden falling on business. Is that sensible? Is it moral? Are private sector landlords so integral to the UK economy? Are they the only people capable of providing this service? The clear answer is that they aren't, but billions of pounds disappear from the economy by way of potential consumer spend into this black hole every year and the taxpayer foots the bill. Why oh why are we prioritising the personal wealth of private sector landlords like this? It's crazy OK it's to simplistic to perform this transfer as I describe it, but we would be better off as a society and an economy if we could reduce the cost of renting by say £300 a month using alternative methods of supply side provision, or changes to policy, and then increase the level of tax by £200. It represents a net gain to the Treasury and the tenant. The only loser is the private sector landlord. So what? A lot of these landlords don't buy new build anyway, so they won't kick start a housing boom. They tend to buy Victorian houses and convert them into as many rabbit hutch bedrooms as they can cram in. Further more, they aren't really wealth creators or job generators (well certainly not to the extent that can justify their subsidy - and what jobs they do create could still be carried out by sub-contractors through other supply side providers). If anything they suck wealth out of the economy. The best they can claim to do is circulate money instead. They don't really generate export sales, or foreign income earnings either, which is going to be so vital to our economy now. It's a really bad area to prioritise and shelter I do believe however that there might be another culprit lying even further back, and that is the UK consumer who could do some real damage to our balance of payments if they were suddenly unburdened of £3500 property bondage per annum. Contrast with Germany where they can be relied on to spend their higher incomes on German products which will defend German jobs and economic objectives.
 
i havent read it all but am certainly not buying into rent controls

Why does the left always believe it knows what is best for everyone? as with the lunatic suggestion for civil servants to set house price sales

The germany comparison is frankly weird and very tenuous. its entirely wrong to assume that all extra disposable income gets spent on imported goods.

As for the controls not affecting the market. Rubbish. It will most certainly affect supply. i have dealt with financing of two build to lets in last year. )one is on going and 5 units in cumbria) the people concerned have other business as they so often do. I can say without any shadow of a doubt that they simply would not enter this market if some fat useless civil servant was going to tell them what rent to charge. No way. no chance

not aimed at you warbler but there is an arrognace on the left that they know better than the markets. They dont and should leave well alone
 
Suggets you do read it all, unless you're trying to suggest that KPMG are some lunatic fringe communist co-conspirators. About half of it is lifted by way of copy and paste (no different to you posting lengthy links)

I think you need to clarify if you're 'qualitative' example is for commercial premises or domestic? - massively different dynamics in the respective markets. Also build to lets are not presenting the same problem as buy to lets. New build is introducing new supply, buy to lets aren't doing so to the same degree as it relies on recirculating existing stock

Also the idea that this is a pure market (resdiential lettings) is highly questionable. The government have made some very clear interventions that have turned it upside down (wasn't their intention admittedly) but they removed 250,000 new builds when they abolished the RES's. Scrapped the expansion towns programme, and have also introduced primary legislation through the Localism Bill which has led to major log jams in the planning system now, as empowered communities (in absolute contradiction of what Greg Clark said would happen) have systematically blocked new build proposals. It isn't a free market if you define that by being market led. The government have been a major comtributor to stoking up the recent bubble (even if they thought they weren't going to be). What this comes down is a fundamental misread by Clark and Pickles who were adamant that parents would want what was best for their children etc They might do if the benefits were restricted to their children, and their children alone, but if it's more fuzzy they've demonstrated that they prioritise what's best for themselves first, and if this means opposing new planning apps, this is what they've done.
 
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